Illegal Substitutions/Players

[JamesC]

I wasn't real sure if this would go under "Rules" or "Situations" but I decided on "Rules", so here it is.

I was looking through my brand new 2010 FED rulebook and just freshening up on few things, trying to stay sharp; you know how us umpires are. Anyways, I'm looking at the rule that all umpires know but very few fans know. You know, the one about if an illegal player is discovered batting (or if someone is batting out of order) and this is a) brought to the umpires attention at the time of the bat, then the correct batter just assumes the count and continues or it is discovered immediately after the at bat, but before the first pitch to the next batter, then he will be declared out.

So, my question is, what if there is an illegal batter, and a runner on third at the same time. Assume this batter works a 2-2 count, and the 5th pitch is a wild pitch and the runner scores. This moves the count to 3-2. Hypothetically speaking, to further the depth of this question, let's say the next pitch is ball four. Obviously the coach is going to do something about it, but would he do it after the runner scored, or would he wait until the walk is drawn? Does the coach taking action after the runner scored negate the score, and place the runner back on third base?

Just some food for thought I guess, and something to discuss. Maybe this seems easy and irrelevant to you guys, but I just thought about it and thought it may be worth discussing.

[JamesC]

Ok so I have answered my own question.

FED Rule 7-1, last sentence of the first paragraph "While the improper batter is at bat, if a runner advances because of a stolen base, balk, wild pitch, or passed ball, such advance is legal".

[BrianC14]

James,

I cannot speak for Fed rules, as they do not exist north of the 49th parallel.

If one were to be ruling under OBR, reference 6.07 NOTE

To tell its story, it says that any runner advancing on a stolen base, balk, wild pitch, or passed ball, is legal.

Now on the other hand, still under OBR mind you, if R3 scores "with the help" of the illegal batter, and the BOOO is correctly appealed, he would be brought back out of the bench and placed on 3B, unless of course there were two out when the infraction occurred.

It is a fair rule when you break it down logically; thank you for posting- I am interested to see if Fed differs from OBR yet again here.

I'd like your rule citation on this. :no:

[Ump29]

I would also be interested in a rule cite. As far as I know, under OBR, the run would score on the passed ball. A score "with the help" of the illegal batter would be as a result of a hit, etc and is covered in the rules.

[UmpJM]

Ump29 & Brian,

I'm a little puzzled by your request to ump_24 to provide a cite. He provided one, and I found it "spot on".

When I saw his cite, I presumed he was referring to the

NOTE: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.

language.

His response to JamesC's query, "What happens if a runner scores on a wild pitch during an improper batter's at bat?" was dead on and he provided the proper cite.

I would use different language than he in a synopsis of the question, but he's right and has the right cite.

What's your question?

JM

[Ump29]

It is the second part referred to about "with the help" of the batter that I (we?) were looking for a cite .

[JamesC]

What if bases were loaded and he drew a walk? That would constitute the "with the help" statement, right? This may be a rhetorical question, but would you just call the illegal batter out (presuming the mistake was correctly protested) and return the runners?

[BrianC14]

It is the second part referred to about "with the help" of the batter that I (we?) were looking for a cite .

Right.

There is no rule allowing the runner to be returned to 3B the way the OP situation is. On the WP, R3 can score. The next pitch is a walk, and if BOO is appealed at that point, then the proper batter can be called out, but the run would still be counted. "With help" of course, means that the batter got a hit which scored the run... and as U24 correctly stated, 6.07B is the ruling for that.

Now... JamesC asks a very interesting question about a bases loaded walk... the only reference I find is in the J/R book, which states:

Any runner who advanced because of the improper batter's batted ball or award must return to his TOP base. A runner who advanced for some other or additional reason (wild pickoff throw, overthrow, wild pitch, balk) is allowed his advance. [6.07 B 2]

By the way, BOO shouldn't be confused with an illegal substitution, the latter of which is defined as a player who is ineligible to enter due to a specific rule. BOO should also not be confused with an unannounced substitute (an eligible player who enters the game without notification).

Edited January 9, 2010 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

Quick quiz:

Can an umpire indicate / correct a batting out of order?

[JamesC]

I would say yes, but I do not have the book here with me. It seems I remember it saying something about "if/when the umpire or defensive team recognizes..." but I may be wrong. It is just rare that an umpire would catch it unless it is later in a game and the person that is usually batting after little Johnny isn't there anymore. I guess the umpire would have to be paying exceptional attention in this situation.

[BrianC14]

I would say yes, but I do not have the book here with me. It seems I remember it saying something about "if/when the umpire or defensive team recognizes..." but I may be wrong. It is just rare that an umpire would catch it unless it is later in a game and the person that is usually batting after little Johnny isn't there anymore. I guess the umpire would have to be paying exceptional attention in this situation.

From J/R:

An umpire may not suggest or indicate that a batter is improper [6.07 D 2] and the offense may not appeal its own error, but the offense can change batters. [6.07 A 1]. Only the defense can appeal that a batter has batted out of order. [6.07 B]

This is part of what sets apart BOO from an illegal substitute; when you see an illegal substitute as an umpire, you can (and should) point it out and prevent it from taking place.

[mstaylor]

As far as the R3 scoring, in the OP he scores because it was an independant action, with bases loaded they would return.

Remember in this discussion it is an improper batter not an illegal player. An illegal batter is a whole different rule.

[BrianC14]

As far as the R3 scoring, in the OP he scores because it was an independant action, with bases loaded they would return.

Remember in this discussion it is an improper batter not an illegal player. An illegal batter is a whole different rule.

Right - as posted from J/R manual earlier:

Any runner who advanced because of the improper batter's batted ball or award must return to his TOP base. A runner who advanced for some other or additional reason (wild pickoff throw, overthrow, wild pitch, balk) is allowed his advance. [6.07 B 2]

A BB is an award.

[spiritump]

any runneres on base that advance get to keep there bases gained

[semper_fi_72]

Quick quiz:

Can an umpire indicate / correct a batting out of order?

OBR 6.07 Comment

As Sgt Shultz use to say, I see nothing!!!!

It is players and managers job not the umpire to indicate a BOO Sit.

[cpttuna]

also remember a player cannot bat out of order if he is not in the lineup.