plate or bases which is harder

[bniu]

Ideally, in a three or four man crew, or even 6 man, I would love it if I could be at 1st base every single game. The bang bang calls at first just keep you on your toes and are my favorite aspect of a game. In a multi man crew, I'd have the crew chief out at 1st base, 2nd most senior at the plate and 3rd senior at 2nd. Third base and the outfield would go junior IMO, man i would hate to be an outfield ump, there really isn't a whole lot to do...

[BT_Blue]

Experience is the best teacher. The rookie watching isn't going to learn as much as the rookie doing and being given timely feedback. That's not lazy, that's another training method.

I agree with Larry. Home is where the heart ache is and guess what. Thats where these rookies would learn the most. The base umpire could then every so often or even better after the game can give instruction and help to the rookie.

When I first started I worked almost exclusively behind the plate. Bases have a lot to remember and rookies dont need that on their head until later on.

[Mr Umpire]

When I first started I worked almost exclusively behind the plate. Bases have a lot to remember and rookies dont need that on their head until later on.

I respectfully disagree. I can work with a rookie and make it easy for them. I simply take all of the thought out of being on the bases such as when to go out or not. Just stick with the runner and I'll take the rest. This way, if anything strange happens, I take the heat and work things out. Then, the rookie can watch me for the most part about positioning and calling pitches. I can easily tell them where they would normally go on a play.

Plus, they don't get frustrated with a team/teams not liking the strike zone or whatever else they complain about. After they get a couple of games under their belt and see how veteran umpires handle misbehaving teams, then they get back there and try.

I feel this lessens the number of umpires who don't umpire again after a couple of games. Also, I have seen far too many times. A veteran asks their partner "How long have you been umpiring?" Rookie says, "This is my first game." Veteran says "Then, as the rookie, you take the plate." And, that veteran sits on the bases to make easy money while their rookie partner takes heat because he doesn't have a clue of what a descent strike zone looks like.

This is just my opinion on how to keep rookies in the game and for them to continue umpiring. The more I can take off of them, the longer they will stick with it and get better at it. I have had more new umpires who were thrown behind the plate say they learned more on the bases with me then getting behind the plate with other umpires.

[PeteBooth]

I respectfully disagree. I can work with a rookie and make it easy for them. I simply take all of the thought out of being on the bases such as when to go out or not. Just stick with the runner and I'll take the rest. This way, if anything strange happens, I take the heat and work things out. Then, the rookie can watch me for the most part about positioning and calling pitches. I can easily tell them where they would normally go on a play.

IMO, the VET should take the bases

WHY!

I know the base umpire has their own responsibilities but it is easier to evaluate the rookie performance on the bases as opposed to the dish.

When you have the dish, it is very difficult to evaluate another's performance.

When I was a rookie and at one time we all were, the VET gave me the dish. It was a GREAT way to learn. The VET took the time to give me a good POST game critique where I took notes and eventually improved with each game.

Yes the bases are important but one makes a name for themselves by doing the dish.

Eventually a rookie is going to have to get their "feet wet" and they might as well "sink in" when they have a VET present who has their "back"

In all aspects of life no matter what you do the rookie is going to get tested. The HS varisty coach or NCAA Coach KNOWS who is new and they will test you that's why IMO it's a good idea to team up an umpire moving up to the varsity / Collegiate level for the first time with a VET.

In Summary, I disagree with your statement about the VET doing the dish and the rookie doing the bases for reasons I stated. Eventually the rookie needs to do the dish and he/she might as well do it with a VET present.

Pete Booth

[BrianC14]

IMO, the VET should take the bases

WHY!

I know the base umpire has their own responsibilities but it is easier to evaluate the rookie performance on the bases as opposed to the dish.

When you have the dish, it is very difficult to evaluate another's performance.

When I was a rookie and at one time we all were, the VET gave me the dish. It was a GREAT way to learn. The VET took the time to give me a good POST game critique where I took notes and eventually improved with each game.

Yes the bases are important but one makes a name for themselves by doing the dish.

Eventually a rookie is going to have to get their "feet wet" and they might as well "sink in" when they have a VET present who has their "back"

In all aspects of life no matter what you do the rookie is going to get tested. The HS varisty coach or NCAA Coach KNOWS who is new and they will test you that's why IMO it's a good idea to team up an umpire moving up to the varsity / Collegiate level for the first time with a VET.

In Summary, I disagree with your statement about the VET doing the dish and the rookie doing the bases for reasons I stated. Eventually the rookie needs to do the dish and he/she might as well do it with a VET present.

Pete Booth

Well said!

To add to this, what's the rookie going to learn if the veteran takes the plate and "covers" the rookie's mistakes (both real and imagined)? The rookie learns nothing, except how to do things the wrong way!

So when that same rookie goes to work with another veteran, (who also pushes him off to the bases) guess what happens? Nothing good, I can tell you that much. :meditation:

[Mr Umpire]

I feel we may be talking about 2 different levels of umpires. Ones who have training vs. Ones who have not been trained(inexperienced). In College and HS level ball (depending upon how the association is run), then I am fine with a rookie getting the plate early. They generally have some idea of what they are doing and should be able to better handle themselves especially at that level.

Those outside of this, such as quite a few LL parks and other rec leagues, I feel the more experienced ones should take the plate early on. An experienced umpire should be able to evaluate their partner's performance even from behind the plate. And, these are the ones I am referring to about relieving them of some responsibility until they get an understanding. And, if the vet is giving instructional feedback between innings, then no bad habits should be unaddressed. Then, after they have seen a couple of games or so from the bases, let them back there and give them feedback. At least then, they have an idea of what to do behind the plate. Just throwing a rookie behind the plate at this level is bad because they may not even know what the slot is, much less where it is.

At the College and HS level, a rookie who has no clue about baseball and umpiring should not get on the field until they have some training. Even if it is just a couple of weekend clinics. They will still make mistakes but at least they have an idea on the basic mechanics at that point.

[PeteBooth]

I

And, if the vet is giving instructional feedback between innings, then no bad habits should be unaddressed.

Again we disagree - hey that's what these Forums are all about.

Now if you get a parent out of the stands to help out on the bases (I am obviously talking LL or other type youth ball) then I can somewhat understand your comment, HOWEVER,

You do not give feedback DURING the game that is what POST game is for. It seems from your response that you are "afraid" to let the rookie make mistakes. that's what it is all about.

Look at football, a young QB even some of the great ones in the beginning have to take their lumps and learn the hardway. The Denver Bronco fans wanted to jetison Elway during his rough beginning.

Umpiring is no differernt. Let the Rookie take the dish and evaluate him/her AFTER the game.

if the umpire cares anything at all about umpiring they will listen and learn. If they do not give a darn that's an altogether different subject matter.

Pete Booth

[Mr Umpire]

Again we disagree - hey that's what these Forums are all about.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I am not concerned with a rookie taking the plate or not. It is just my philosophy of where a new umpire can observe more with less complication of what to do. When I say rookie, I mean first year ever umpire who may or may not have gone to any clinics.

A trained(even only a clinic or 2) new umpire can take the plate immediately, although I am against it. I prefer they get at least a game or 2 on the bases to watch the HP umpire's positioning on pitches and on plays. They will have some idea of where to position, although it may not be completely right.

An untrained umpire that is just starting to umpire such as some 18 yr old off the street should be treated differently than one who has gone to a couple of clinics and been around umpiring.

I still feel I can evaluate them on the bases as well as I can behind the plate. As you stated, it is more difficult to watch other things while behind the plate. Now, expecting a new umpire to watch a Vet on the bases and watch their positioning at the same time as feeling uncomfortable behind the plate isn't going to work either.

Again, I am referring to a brand new umpire. Not one who is new to that level of play such as a new HS umpire who has umpired some in the past, even if it is just rec ball or clinics.

[Dragon29]

I agree w/Pete & others who say the (trained) rookie should take the plate for all of the reasons they've stated but have one more thing to add.

In a normal game, the PU is going to see 200+ pitches and may have to make a call on 120, 130 or more. While a BU may have several dozen calls in a game, typically there are only a few that are 'close.'

Based upon the number of oportunities the PU has to make calls during a game, everyone (Managers, coaches, players - even spectators) has a certain level of expectation that some may be called 'wrong'. Hell, we all watch MLB games and don't go nuts if we think the PU has missed few.

Now, let a BU get one close one 'wrong' (in their eyes) and he'll never hear the end of it.

So, there's actually a little less pressure on a rookie PU than a rookie BU.

Just my B)