Time Play w/ Ball Four

[ukce1861]

LLSB game another umpire and I were discussing this morning.

R2, R3, 2 outs and a 3 ball count on the batter. During the windup, the ball slips out of F1's hand and goes behind her, which is a ball in LLSB. Runners advance. R3 scores, R2 gets thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out. The BR never advances to first base. I don't think you could call abandonment on this since that applies after a runner touches first base (and at that point it wouldn't matter). But could the defense appeal at first base for an advantageous fourth out since the BR never touched first?

[sdix00]

LLSB game another umpire and I were discussing this morning.

R2, R3, 2 outs and a 3 ball count on the batter. During the windup, the ball slips out of F1's hand and goes behind her, which is a ball in LLSB. Runners advance. R3 scores, R2 gets thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out. The BR never advances to first base. I don't think you could call abandonment on this since that applies after a runner touches first base (and at that point it wouldn't matter). But could the defense appeal at first base for an advantageous fourth out since the BR never touched first?

In Baseball world, the umpire can call out at BR for not advancing to 1B in a timely fashion. I believe PU should only use this call in the face of gross neglect or a runner's refusal to run. Other than that, I think you wait. . . and wait for BR and her coach to figure it out. If she enters the dugout because she thinks the inning is over, then you have "Desertion" not Abandonment. "Desertion" is not in the rule book but is a similar concept to Abandonment and is explained in J/R. Basically, she failed to advance.

I would probably stay quiet and allow the run to score (illegally), and disallow the run if the coach mentioned it before the next pitch of the next inning. Filed under Stick, Dirty End.

[mstaylor]

I don't know about SB but there is a PBUC ruling that says they can appeal first for an advantagous fourth out.

[sdix00]

Yes. Absolutely allow the appeal, as MST says.

My point is that "Desertion" is an option, even after all players have left the field. No appeal necessary. If DM mentions it, he gets it.

[LMSANS]

LLSB game another umpire and I were discussing this morning.

R2, R3, 2 outs and a 3 ball count on the batter. During the windup, the ball slips out of F1's hand and goes behind her, which is a ball in LLSB. Runners advance. R3 scores, R2 gets thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out. The BR never advances to first base. I don't think you could call abandonment on this since that applies after a runner touches first base (and at that point it wouldn't matter). But could the defense appeal at first base for an advantageous fourth out since the BR never touched first?

Under NFHS softball rule 8-2:

ART. 4

The batter-runner shall be called out when:

The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

EXCEPTION: (S.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

PENALTY: (Art. 4) The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base touched at the time of the infraction.

The case book has the following:

8.1.1 SITUATION D:

The umpire calls ball four on B1 who does not go immediately or directly to first base. RULING: If B1 enters the dugout or does not reach first base before the time of the next pitch, B1 shall be declared out.

My reading on this is that it is a timing play and the run is allowed. Time of the infraction is after the run has scored.

[sdix00]

LLSB game another umpire and I were discussing this morning.

R2, R3, 2 outs and a 3 ball count on the batter. During the windup, the ball slips out of F1's hand and goes behind her, which is a ball in LLSB. Runners advance. R3 scores, R2 gets thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out. The BR never advances to first base. I don't think you could call abandonment on this since that applies after a runner touches first base (and at that point it wouldn't matter). But could the defense appeal at first base for an advantageous fourth out since the BR never touched first?

Under NFHS softball rule 8-2:

ART. 4

The batter-runner shall be called out when:

The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

EXCEPTION: (S.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

PENALTY: (Art. 4) The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base touched at the time of the infraction.

The case book has the following:

8.1.1 SITUATION D:

The umpire calls ball four on B1 who does not go immediately or directly to first base. RULING: If B1 enters the dugout or does not reach first base before the time of the next pitch, B1 shall be declared out.

My reading on this is that it is a timing play and the run is allowed. Time of the infraction is after the run has scored.

How is it possible that a run can score on a play in which the BR makes the 3rd out before she reaches 1B?

______

Also, is the ball dead on an Illegal Pitch in Softball? This would affect things.

[LMSANS]

LLSB game another umpire and I were discussing this morning.

R2, R3, 2 outs and a 3 ball count on the batter. During the windup, the ball slips out of F1's hand and goes behind her, which is a ball in LLSB. Runners advance. R3 scores, R2 gets thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out. The BR never advances to first base. I don't think you could call abandonment on this since that applies after a runner touches first base (and at that point it wouldn't matter). But could the defense appeal at first base for an advantageous fourth out since the BR never touched first?

Under NFHS softball rule 8-2:

ART. 4

The batter-runner shall be called out when:

The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

EXCEPTION: (S.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

PENALTY: (Art. 4) The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base touched at the time of the infraction.

The case book has the following:

8.1.1 SITUATION D:

The umpire calls ball four on B1 who does not go immediately or directly to first base. RULING: If B1 enters the dugout or does not reach first base before the time of the next pitch, B1 shall be declared out.

My reading on this is that it is a timing play and the run is allowed. Time of the infraction is after the run has scored.

How is it possible that a run can score on a play in which the BR makes the 3rd out before she reaches 1B?

______

Also, is the ball dead on an Illegal Pitch in Softball? This would affect things.

It's not an illegal pitch, it's a ball. The infraction is not called until after the third out is recorded and BR reaches the dugout.

[noumpere]

It's not an illegal pitch, it's a ball. The infraction is not called until after the third out is recorded and BR reaches the dugout.

I dont work soft ball so I may be way off base but I read this as not a time play now if the bases had been juiced and the runner from third was awarded home I could see an interpretation that would let the run score.