Couple of situations

[crazyaboutcoues]

R2, base hit, R2 touches third and comes home and touches home. Third base coach is screaming come back to third you missed it. He runs back to third and a tag is made before he gets there. U3 asked me (PU) did he touch home? I said Yes he did. We counted the run, because the U3 said that he did touch third... Question...does the runner have to touch home and then run to third if he did miss 3rd or can he just run to third from half way between home and the dug out?

#2 BR slides into first, touches first and over slides. F3 tags him, is he out?

[carolinablue]

#1 ) You must retouch all bases in order when returning to a base. He would need to touch home before returning.

# 2 ) As long as he makes no attempt towards 2B and returns to 1B immediately he is not out. Just as if he had overrun the bag.

The question I have about # 1 is if he is out trying to return, even though he touched third and home ?

[JamesC]

IMO, in the first situation I would call the guy safe on the tag (since he had already touched the plate, you cannot return to touch a missed base once you have touched the following base, right?) and then, upon proper appeal, whether he did or did not miss the base (in the umpire's judgement) I would still call him out due to the fact that HIS OWN COACH thinks he missed the base. Your stupidity, your fault. I doubt, that if you call him out based on a miscue his own coach strongly believes happened, that you will have any complaints from anyone. However, if you call him safe saying that he did touch the base, even after his own coach is screaming to everyone on the field that he missed it, that it is very likely you could expect to see the other Defensive Team's coach in a quick minute. Just my opinion.

[carolinablue]

Unless I am totally off base here, ( no pun intended ), a runner may return to touch a missed base no matter how far beyond that base he has advanced as long as the ball remains live. If the ball becomes dead, he may not return to a base once he has advanced to the next base.

In the OP however, the runner was returning to a base he had already touched, as if he had missed it.. I have never had this happen to me and am not sure if by doing so if he is putting himself in jeopardy of being tagged out or not.

[JamesC]

I could be wrong Carolina. I know that on a caught fly ball it does not matter where the runner is, he/she can return to touch the base he was on at the time of the hit. Just for some reason I thought that you could not return to touch a missed base after rounding (touching) a following base. I have definitely been wrong about things before and am sure it will happen again...and again...

[BrianC14]

Unless I am totally off base here, ( no pun intended ), a runner may return to touch a missed base no matter how far beyond that base he has advanced as long as the ball remains live. If the ball becomes dead, he may not return to a base once he has advanced to the next base.

True, but with an exception: if a runner scores, and has missed a base (or the plate) along the way, and a following runner then scores, that first runner cannot return to touch a missed base.

[PeteBooth]

R2, base hit, R2 touches third and comes home and touches home. Third base coach is screaming come back to third you missed it. He runs back to third and a tag is made before he gets there. U3 asked me (PU) did he touch home? I said Yes he did. We counted the run, because the U3 said that he did touch third... Question...does the runner have to touch home and then run to third if he did miss 3rd or can he just run to third from half way between home and the dug out?

here is the applicable rule covering your situation

Rule 5.06 Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball.

Therefore, R3's run counts EVEN if he missed home plate. the defense would have to properly appeal.

#2 BR slides into first, touches first and over slides. F3 tags him, is he out?

No different then if he didn't slide. You can over-run first base as long as you make no effort to advance and return immediately to the base.

Pete Booth

[crazyaboutcoues]

So if he did in fact miss third base would he have to tag home to run back to 3rd or can he run from half way between home and the dugout without touching home and still be safe? :kissass:

[Replacematt]

So if he did in fact miss third base would he have to tag home to run back to 3rd or can he run from half way between home and the dugout without touching home and still be safe?

If he does not touch home while returning to third, he is liable for appeal at home.

[carolinablue]

7.02 In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

Here is a rule reference from OBR. In your OP, since the runner had touched home, he would need to retouch home on his way back to third. If he does not he can be called out on a proper appeal.

This post has brought up a couple of questions for me. Pete answered one with a rule reference. Thank You.

Here is the other, I will give an example for clarity :

No one on base, outs don't matter. BR hits grounder to F6 who fields the ball cleanly but makes an errant throw to F3, ball goes into DBT. Umpire points BR to 2B but BR missed 1B. BR goes immediatly to 2B without touching 1B. Ball is dead, BR is on 2B.

DC tells pitcher to appeal 1B because he saw the runner miss the base. Runner realizes he screwed up by not touching 1B before going to 2B and knows the appeal is coming.

When the PU calls play and makes the ball live again, can the runner now attempt to return to 1B and beat the appeal ? I know this is not likely on a 90' diamond but you never know. On a 60' diamond I can see a runner doing this and beating it if it is legal.

Edited July 29, 2009 by carolinablue

[mstaylor]

If he is returning to touch third he must touch the plate first. Now i the case where he didn't miss any bases but his coach thinks he did, he can't be tagged out. Once he legally touches all the bases he can't unring the bell.

If the PU has him touching third and home but he tries to return to retouch third, once the play is dead the PU announces he is safe at the plate and the run scores.

Except in Fed, the runner may retrace his steps to retouch bases even after the ball is dead as long as he doesn't touch an advance base after the ball is dead.

Example:

R1 is between second and third when the ball goes out of play, he has left first early. He may return to touch first as long as he doesn't touch third first.

[Replacematt]

If he is returning to touch third he must touch the plate first. Now i the case where he didn't miss any bases but his coach thinks he did, he can't be tagged out. Once he legally touches all the bases he can't unring the bell.

If the PU has him touching third and home but he tries to return to retouch third, once the play is dead the PU announces he is safe at the plate and the run scores.

Except in Fed, the runner may retrace his steps to retouch bases even after the ball is dead as long as he doesn't touch an advance base after the ball is dead.

Example:

R1 is between second and third when the ball goes out of play, he has left first early. He may return to touch first as long as he doesn't touch third first.

You've got it backwards. OBR, a runner can retouch as long as he does not touch an advance base after the ball is dead. FED, once that ball is dead, he's SOL.

[mstaylor]

Matt, that's what I said. I said except for Fed. As you say in Fed you are sunk if you are beyond the next base.

[carolinablue]

Example:

R1 is between second and third when the ball goes out of play, he has left first early. He may return to touch first as long as he doesn't touch third first.

( With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

I may be interpreting this rule wrong, but this makes it sound like he can't do that. He has touched 2B which is beyond the base he has missed.

[mstaylor]

It means touching after the ball is dead.

OBR and NCAA: You may return to a missed base or a base left early after passing the next base while the ball is live. Once the ball is dead, if he touches another base, he may not return.

Fed: If you are beyond the next base you may not return after the ball is dead.

[BrianC14]

( With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

I may be interpreting this rule wrong, but this makes it sound like he can't do that. He has touched 2B which is beyond the base he has missed.

Returning to a base that he left early doesn't equate with returning to touch a missed a base ... or does it.... ??? :kissass:

[Bailey8]

Based on the opening situation #1, R2 touches all bases and coach yells to return third based to touch.

Hypothetically, R2 gets into rundown between 3rd and home, meanwhile BR makes his way to 3rd while defense is busy in rundown with R2.

Could there be interference by a retired runner (R2)?

[BrianC14]

Based on the opening situation #1, R2 touches all bases and coach yells to return third based to touch.

Hypothetically, R2 gets into rundown between 3rd and home, meanwhile BR makes his way to 3rd while defense is busy in rundown with R2.

Could there be interference by a retired runner (R2)?

Could be, if you judged the runner's intentions to be done so as to confuse the defense.

[PeteBooth]

No one on base, outs don't matter. BR hits grounder to F6 who fields the ball cleanly but makes an errant throw to F3, ball goes into DBT. Umpire points BR to 2B but BR missed 1B. BR goes immediatly to 2B without touching 1B. Ball is dead, BR is on 2B.

Playing action is now OVER. The runner accepted his award and is now standing on second base.

In FED the coach can make a dead ball appeal. While the ball is dead no bases may be run or outs recorded (except the dead ball appeal)

The coach says "Blue the BR missed first base" We rule accordingly. The BR is now toast. If he starts to run to first base you simply put a stop to it because the ball is dead. The BR had his chance to correct his base running error when accepting the award and he didn't.

Ok now OBR - the ball has to be made live again.

When the PU calls play and makes the ball live again, can the runner now attempt to return to 1B and beat the appeal ? I know this is not likely on a 90' diamond but you never know. On a 60' diamond I can see a runner doing this and beating it if it is legal.

At TOP the runner is on second base. When the UIC calls play if R2 (the original BR) starts to return to first base there is another rule that comes into play meaning the runner is now running the bases in reverse order hence you call him out.

The bottom line: The runner had his chance to correct his mistake upon acceptance of the award. if he fails for the most part he is toast

REALITY: if the BR knows he missed first base and the ball becomes LIVE rather then going back to first base and be called out for running the bases in reverse order he would simply try and advance to third base and try to FORCE the defense to make a play on him. if the defense makes a play on him and he is safe at third base or makes it safely back to second then the defense has lost it's right to appeal.

NOTE: In FED, if the OFFENSE initiates the action during LIVE ball the defense can still appeal. Using my example above, in FED the defense could still appeal EVEN though they made a play since it was R2 who initiated the action.

Pete Booth

[RenoUmp]

If he does not touch home while returning to third, he is liable for appeal at home.

Just thinking out loud.

Since there is not a basepath or direction that the runner who has reached home is required to follow (e.g. towards 3rd after 2nd, towards Home after 3rd, etc); and assuming in the original post that the runner's dugout is on the third base side; couldn't you make the case that the runner was in fact making his own basepath and returning to third after touching home and realizing his mistake; therefore, not having to "retouch" home.

Frankly, in this case I am just playing devil's advocate for not banging him.

[BrianC14]

Just thinking out loud.

Since there is not a basepath or direction that the runner who has reached home is required to follow (e.g. towards 3rd after 2nd, towards Home after 3rd, etc); and assuming in the original post that the runner's dugout is on the third base side; couldn't you make the case that the runner was in fact making his own basepath and returning to third after touching home and realizing his mistake; therefore, not having to "retouch" home.

Frankly, in this case I am just playing devil's advocate for not banging him.

BZZZT. Nope.

You can't "establish your own path" and conveniently skip a required touch of an intervening base (in this case, home plate). And a runner that has / is about to do this, I'm going to keep an eye on, because if he so much as sets one foot into the dugout area, he's done. :BD:

[carolinablue]

(2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

I'm about to show my stupidity here but I have got to get this straight.

If I am understanding Micheal, he is saying that the part of this rule that says advanced to and touched, is talking about after the ball is dead, correct?

So in OBR when the ball becomes dead, a runner that has advanced from home to 3B before the dead ball and has missed 1B can return to 1B ( under the dead ball condition ) and retouch provided he doesn't touch home while the ball is dead ?

It's confusing me because I don't see the relevance of touching( advancing ) a base while the ball is dead. Help me out here.:BD:

[mstaylor]

OK, let's make an example that happens fairly frequently. R1 goes on the pitch and it is hit to the outfield. He is going on the pitch assuming it won't be caught. It is caught with him between second and third. He tries to return to first but the ball is thrown out of play before he can retouch second.

In OBR he can go ahead and retrace his steps to first to avoid the appeal at first, then take his award to third. The same play in Fed, he wouldn't be able to fix his error.

Example two:

R2 and a single down the right field line, R2 goes home on the hit. He misses third on his way, base coach yells for him to return. He must touch the plate first and then touch third. The second possibility is the OP and he doesn't miss third but the base coach thinks he does. If he returns he can't be put out because he has legally touched home.

Now if the ball had been thrown out of play during the first part of the second example, when it went out would determine if he could fix his miss at third. Say the ball goes out after he touches the plate then he is good to return. If it goes out before he touches the plate and he continues on and touches then he can't return to third.

The last thing that would preclude him from returning to third is if a trail runner scores after him and before he tries to retouch.

Now, is that clear as mud? :tantrum:

[carolinablue]

See if this sounds right. Any base a runner touches or passes when the ball is live can be returned to by runner after the ball becomes dead provided he doesn't advance to another base after the dead ball.

I still have a question however. No bases can be ran during a dead ball situation, so any base aquired during a dead ball is a result of an award provided by the rules and applied by the umpire.

So take the example of the runner rounding third and the ball going out of play. The ball becomes dead with him betweem third and home. The umpire points him home on the oop ball, he can then either touch home forfieting his right to return to third or he can first retouch third and then go home.

Lets say in the same situation the ball becomes dead just before the runner touched home but his momentum carries him beyond the base. Is this a judgement call by the umpire ? Does he need to touch home again to score the run and would he still be able to return to third if necessary ?

[mstaylor]

Lets say in the same situation the ball becomes dead just before the runner touched home but his momentum carries him beyond the base. Is this a judgement call by the umpire ? Does he need to touch home again to score the run and would he still be able to return to third if necessary ?

Sounds like you have it. In your question about his momontum carrying past th plate, he could simply touch home to make that legal. If he needed to return to third he is going to have to touch the plate, which is going to make it illegall to retouch third.