Changing an out call

[wek29]

Would you agree with these situations? If so, can you help me with the difference?

One, play at the plate and you call out, but then see the ball loose and call safe.

Two, you call strike 3 and declare batter out but then realize the ball was not caught. (See I've learned something here! ) Call is not reversed.

Does what I am asking make sense? Seen both of these recently and I'll stick my neck out and say I think both were right. Although the 2nd one ended up wrong, the catcher didn't attempt a play due to the out call.

[Thunderheads]

Would you agree with these situations? If so, can you help me with the difference?

One, play at the plate and you call out, but then see the ball loose and call safe.

Two, you call strike 3 and declare batter out but then realize the ball was not caught. (See I've learned something here! ) Call is not reversed.

Does what I am asking make sense? Seen both of these recently and I'll stick my neck out and say I think both were right. Although the 2nd one ended up wrong, the catcher didn't attempt a play due to the out call.

Ok, sitch 1 could be a timing issue ..............S_L_O_W it down ...... see the play happen completely, ...make the call .... At the end of the day ...get it right, ...if you jump the gun (it's embarrasing) but getting it right is most important.

2) Too many scenarios here.... If there is less and 2 out, and first base is occupied, ...strike 3 , out. If there is less than 2 out and first is NOT occupied, or, if there are 2 outs (regardless of who's on base) it's strike 3 ....if the ball is caught, out, if not, ....wait, ...see a tag or the catcher makes a throw to first ...then he's out ;)

[wek29]

Would you agree with these situations? If so, can you help me with the difference?

One, play at the plate and you call out, but then see the ball loose and call safe.

Two, you call strike 3 and declare batter out but then realize the ball was not caught. (See I've learned something here! ) Call is not reversed.

Does what I am asking make sense? Seen both of these recently and I'll stick my neck out and say I think both were right. Although the 2nd one ended up wrong, the catcher didn't attempt a play due to the out call.

Ok, sitch 1 could be a timing issue ..............S_L_O_W it down ...... see the play happen completely, ...make the call .... At the end of the day ...get it right, ...if you jump the gun (it's embarrasing) but getting it right is most important.

2) Too many scenarios here.... If there is less and 2 out, and first base is occupied, ...strike 3 , out. If there is less than 2 out and first is NOT occupied, or, if there are 2 outs (regardless of who's on base) it's strike 3 ....if the ball is caught, out, if not, ....wait, ...see a tag or the catcher makes a throw to first ...then he's out

Sorry on 2, I was afraid I didn't put enough. No one was on, PU must not have seen the ball hit the dirt and called, strike 3 batter's out. Batter takes off to 1st with no throw from the catcher. After discussion the umpires ruled that since the PU called the out, that was it. I am wondering if you'd reverse the call in either of the situations? The 1st one the PU corrected himself. The 2nd one the bad call was left since the catcher didn't attempt to make a play due to the PU's verbalization. Does that make more sense?

[Thunderheads]

Would you agree with these situations? If so, can you help me with the difference?

One, play at the plate and you call out, but then see the ball loose and call safe.

Two, you call strike 3 and declare batter out but then realize the ball was not caught. (See I've learned something here! ) Call is not reversed.

Does what I am asking make sense? Seen both of these recently and I'll stick my neck out and say I think both were right. Although the 2nd one ended up wrong, the catcher didn't attempt a play due to the out call.

Ok, sitch 1 could be a timing issue ..............S_L_O_W it down ...... see the play happen completely, ...make the call .... At the end of the day ...get it right, ...if you jump the gun (it's embarrasing) but getting it right is most important.

2) Too many scenarios here.... If there is less and 2 out, and first base is occupied, ...strike 3 , out. If there is less than 2 out and first is NOT occupied, or, if there are 2 outs (regardless of who's on base) it's strike 3 ....if the ball is caught, out, if not, ....wait, ...see a tag or the catcher makes a throw to first ...then he's out

Sorry on 2, I was afraid I didn't put enough. No one was on, PU must not have seen the ball hit the dirt and called, strike 3 batter's out. Batter takes off to 1st with no throw from the catcher. After discussion the umpires ruled that since the PU called the out, that was it. I am wondering if you'd reverse the call in either of the situations? The 1st one the PU corrected himself. The 2nd one the bad call was left since the catcher didn't attempt to make a play due to the PU's verbalization. Does that make more sense?

That would be kind of messy, but to get the call correct, you'd leave the BR on first. But, ...getting back to mechanics (and others will correct me if I'm wrong) ...but ....You shouldn't be verbalizing "strike 3, batters out". First of all, if it's strike 3 and the catcher doesn't drop it...then ....he should KNOW he's out, ....it's obvious. You only need to verbalize this IF, and ONLY IF, you have a dropped/uncaught 3rd strike .... for instance ...check swing short hopped pitch, ...."YES HE DID, ..hammer the strike ...then wait to see what the catcher does, ...tag him, or throw down ...then you second hammer for the out....

make sense?

[SnareDrum]

As Thunderheads said, SLOW it down. Always wait until you see a ball somewhere, either in the mitt/glove or on the ground. A good catcher will show it to you after the tag, but regardless, SEE it. It's more or less acceptable to change a call in that instance, but yes it can be a little embarrassing, especially if you're the only one that didn't see the ball right away.

Memorize that U3K rule, and you'll never have that problem again. Live and learn. Runner on 1B with less than two outs... OUT. No runner on 1B and/or 2 outs, off to the races!

[wek29]

LOL, this wasn't me (in either situation). I wandered over to another field after my game and this mess unfurled in front of me. The catcher caught the ball, but on a bounce so not a legal catch. However, the plate ump did not see it bounce and verbalized as indicated above. So, when you have a 3rd strike the IS caught you only the strike and do not indicate and out, or do you just not verbalize the out?

[MPLSMatt]

On a swinging strike (which a 3K in the dirt probably was), don't verbalize out, strike or anything else. That way you won't get caught in this situation. After you've seen the ball in the catchers mit, signal (no vocal) with a fist.

That said, given your friend's sitch # 2, I leave the runner at first. If it is so clear that everyone in the park knew the ball was in the dirt, including coaches, catcher, fans, grasshoppers in the outfield, etc. the catcher should be smart enough to throw down. If he doesn't coaches should be yelling "throw it down" or whatever. Essentially, umpire screwed up but so did F2 and coaches, why punish the hitter who did his job? That said, that won't be popular.

[mstaylor]

On the play at plate, the last thing you want to see after just calling the runner out is the ball on the ground. A play at the plate is exciting and we have to fight the urge to be too quick. Watch the play all the way through and make the fielder comes up with the ball. If there isn't an intervening play then ask to see the ball if you aren't sure. If there is an intervening play, watch the fielder come up to throw and that will tell you if there is control. If you get caught, absolutely change it, we all have done it.

On the D3K, as mentioned, don't call an out unless it is less than two outs and first base occupied. Otherwise, show the strike, safe the no catch and watch for the play from there. If you wind up as in the OP, eat it, leave him on first and be prepared to take some heat.

[wek29]

On the play at plate, the last thing you want to see after just calling the runner out is the ball on the ground. A play at the plate is exciting and we have to fight the urge to be too quick. Watch the play all the way through and make the fielder comes up with the ball. If there isn't an intervening play then ask to see the ball if you aren't sure. If there is an intervening play, watch the fielder come up to throw and that will tell you if there is control. If you get caught, absolutely change it, we all have done it.

On the D3K, as mentioned, don't call an out unless it is less than two outs and first base occupied. Otherwise, show the strike, safe the no catch and watch for the play from there. If you wind up as in the OP, eat it, leave him on first and be prepared to take some heat.

Ok, that is what I am looking for. I just didn't understand why it was ok tosay I called an out here and changed it, but here I called an out and won't change it. I know the situations have some pretty big differences so it might not have been a good comparison. Thanks everyone!

[wek29]

Oh, and there was something funny I forgot to mention. So, I came on on the 3rd strike situation still in my umpire gear. So this guy comes up asking about it, yes I am kicking myself for not changing 1st, and says he's umpired for 13 years and the ball should have been ruled as caught. He said the kid did not drop it, it just hit the ground and bounced to him. Since the discussion on uncaught vs dropped was so fresh I explained it to him. He made me go through the rulebook and show him. The rulebook not only said it must be legally caught, but it then explained a legally caught ball...I'm a short timer, but that was classic!

[BigBird]

I have found that most umpires who call "strike 3, batters out", are fresh of the Little League ranks and they get into that bad habit (because caught or un-caught are not relevant in majors and below.)

[carolinablue]

There is a difference between the two. With the play at the plate, the out call was made and then the umpire saw the ball on the gound and should have immediately called safe. The play played out like it normally would have regardless of the call.

The third strike incident is worse IMO because by calling the batter out it effected the way it played out. The F2 did not attempt to retire the batter because of the out call.

Either one is not desirable but I would take the 1st situation anytime over the other.

[Pops]

On the play at plate, the last thing you want to see after just calling the runner out is the ball on the ground. A play at the plate is exciting and we have to fight the urge to be too quick. Watch the play all the way through and make the fielder comes up with the ball. If there isn't an intervening play then ask to see the ball if you aren't sure. If there is an intervening play, watch the fielder come up to throw and that will tell you if there is control. If you get caught, absolutely change it, we all have done it.

On the D3K, as mentioned, don't call an out unless it is less than two outs and first base occupied. Otherwise, show the strike, safe the no catch and watch for the play from there. If you wind up as in the OP, eat it, leave him on first and be prepared to take some heat.

I agree that you shouldn't say "out," but are you verbalizing the "strike three" or are you just using the right hand signal?

[mstaylor]

If it is less than two outs and first base occupied then I do announce an out. If the catcher doesn't heed it and throws after a BR that is out, that's his problem. If the BR is allowed to advance then I just show a safe sign.

[persong]

I just call Strike 3 on the third Strike. If it is an out and I know it was caught and the situation is correct where he may run then I will give "He's Out" after. Can you be wrong if you call "strike 3"? I don't think so. Nothing to change if it is dropped. If you call "Strike Three, He's out". Then you can be wrong and have to worry about change.

On the first play, it is so hard to learn the right timing. But trust me, just like everyone else is saying here, WAIT to make the call. Nothing changes if you take 2 seconds to make sure nobody drops the ball before you call out. Then you don't have to look like you are changing a call when you change your out to safe because he dropped the ball. TIMING is so important, but it is the hardest to slow down... It will come with practice though..

[mstaylor]

I just call Strike 3 on the third Strike. If it is an out and I know it was caught and the situation is correct where he may run then I will give "He's Out" after. Can you be wrong if you call "strike 3"? I don't think so. Nothing to change if it is dropped. If you call "Strike Three, He's out". Then you can be wrong and have to worry about change.

On the first play, it is so hard to learn the right timing. But trust me, just like everyone else is saying here, WAIT to make the call. Nothing changes if you take 2 seconds to make sure nobody drops the ball before you call out. Then you don't have to look like you are changing a call when you change your out to safe because he dropped the ball. TIMING is so important, but it is the hardest to slow down... It will come with practice though..

I only say he's out unless it is a situation where he isn't allowed to run.

[persong]

so you took 1 sentence to say what took me 6. Damn you are good. That was what I wanted to say..

[mstaylor]

so you took 1 sentence to say what took me 6. Damn you are good. That was what I wanted to say..

It's a gift. Actually in person I am accused of being very long winded.

[Texarkana]

Play one has been covered. In a two man crew, I will point to the ground if the ball is down to help out my partner or vice-versa. We cover this in our pregame so there are no surprises. Use your partner, that is why there are two (sometimes 4) of you.

[PeteBooth]

The third strike incident is worse IMO because by calling the batter out it effected the way it played out. The F2 did not attempt to retire the batter because of the out call.

Agreed BUT F2 KNEW he did not catch the ball cleanly and should have thrown to first base "just in case"

In BOTH situations the call should be changed. In sitch one for the most part you will not take any heat especially if you notice it right away. In sitch 2 the call also needs to be changed because if you do not you could have a protest on your hands because of a rules violation.

B1 is entitled to run to first base on a DK3 except as Michael noted in his response.

In addition there is precedent set in MLB. Remember Doug Eddings and the White-Sox/ Angles post season game? Similar to the OP. The runner was allowed to stay at first base.

if the coach sees the ball lying on the ground and you "eat the call" he is going to question you. Something along the lines of

1. Blue can I have TIME! F2 dropped the ball therefore, my batter (turned runner) can run to first base.

How are you going to answer that?

In a nutshell players along with coaches are supposed to know the rules.

here is a similar example:

2 outs runners on first and second base. As PU you say or signal the count as 3-2, however, the count is really 2-2. The 1B or 3B coach sends the runners. The pitch is a ball for ball 3 and F2 fires to F5 who tags out R2 to end the inning.

Coach is granted TIME and comes out rather hot. Even though you gave the incorrect count the play stands because the coaches / players are expected to know the rule and in this case the count as well.

Pete Booth

[boyinr]

Play one has been covered. In a two man crew, I will point to the ground if the ball is down to help out my partner or vice-versa. We cover this in our pregame so there are no surprises. Use your partner, that is why there are two (sometimes 4) of you.

Had this (play 1) today and I did it wrong. I am on the plate, bases loaded w/one out , ground ball to F3, gets the force out at first and the throws to the plate. I was positive that F2 had the ball and made the tag until I saw my partner pointing at the ground. l was o sure in fact I never even asked to see the ball. Ugh!!!!!!!!!! I hate being too quick. Thankgoodness my partner covered up my dung pile and the was no big st_t storm. The players (Off and Def) never left left the field . Just me knowning that I should have better and to slow down the next time.

I was on 3BLE and had a great look at the block of the plate and the tag. but I was shielded for the short-hop catch. Should I have had a better postion?

[mstaylor]

Not sure without actually seeing the play but even if you are blocked on the catch, watch the tag then ask for the ball. That will tell you if he made the catch. If there is another play beyond he tag then simply watch the catcher and see if he has the ball for the throw or has to pick it up.

[boyinr]

I fell down on "ask for the ball" step. I was sure (likely becasue I was too fast) that the catcher had it. As in other endevours it is dangerous to ASSUME. Next time I will be better. The only good thing is nothing bad happened from a game management situation and I got to learn a lesson that I hopefully will not repeat.

[Texarkana]

Not sure without actually seeing the play but even if you are blocked on the catch, watch the tag then ask for the ball. That will tell you if he made the catch. If there is another play beyond he tag then simply watch the catcher and see if he has the ball for the throw or has to pick it up.

Mike,

I have read some of your posts and you are obvious quite experienced. I have called ball a long time and am in a very good area down here. I have saw many D-1 players and a lot of pros. The question I have is about plays at home. I know the mechanics and clinics teach first and third base extended, but several times I have saw MLB umpires get out in front of the plate (maybe 2 - 3 ft out). I have walked out there and believe that you truly do have a better look but I rarely see anyone do it. Why? Is it because it is not the norm? This position at the plate has long bothered me because you better call real slow on bangers at home and use your partner or you will have situations like the guy is talking about right now on this thread. I do not want to get a new ump or an experienced one for that matter in a bad habit.

[mstaylor]

Many times it puts you in the throwing lane. Sometimes it's the only place to be.