12u USSSA Fast Pitch Softball, appeal question

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Strange play yesterday, been wondering if we followed proper procedure.  This was just my 2nd USSSA event, and I'm not up to speed on their book.

R1, No outs, everyone expecting bunt.  Batter swings away, hits short foul pop fly near 1st base dugout.  F3 makes nice running catch then hits fence.  I'm on the plate, and have moved over to get good look at the catch.  R1 (who had returned from her lead) takes off for 2nd, catching everyone by surprise.  By the time F3 realizes runner is going, it's too late to throw to 2nd.  As R1 approaches 2nd, she sees that 3rd is not covered, so she keeps going and makes 3rd without a play.

F1 now has the ball in the circle, and coaches are all shouting to her  "she left early"..."go tag first"  As soon as F1 takes a step toward 1st, R1 breaks for home.  F1 spins and throws home, throw is high and runner slides under, clearly safe. 

A couple seconds pass, and I'm now dusting off the plate.  I honestly don't recall if I actually announced TIME, likely I didn't as there were no runners and no batter in the box.  Now I hear my partner shout "SHE'S OUT" and there's a roar from the crowd.  I turn around and see F3 with the ball, jumping off first base in celebration.  Obviously, they had appealed the original tag-up, and my partner ruled that she left early.  After some grumbling, the play stood as called, and did not impact the outcome of the game, but several questions came to mind on the drive home:

1. If I didn't actually declare TIME, is TIME assumed when I turned my back to the field to dust the plate?

2.  Does USSSA allow appeals with dead ball (as in FED) or must they be live (as in OBR)?

3.  Does USSSA require an actual tag of the base to consider an appeal (as in OBR), or should it have been considered by simple request (as in FED)?

4.  If FED rules apply in #3, should we have considered the appeal when we heard coach say "she left early"...even if this remark was not directed at us, and was instead directed at F1?

5.  Did defense lose their right to appeal the initial tag-up once the play was made at the plate? 

 

PS: I have no idea if she left early or not, as I was locked in on the catch and F3's contact with the fence.

 

[VolUmp]

There is a Softball SubForum for your post. 

[CJK]

1.  I think you probably called TIME, you just maybe didn't do it out loud.  =)

2.  A verbal dead ball appeal is allowed by "the coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball."  (9.3, p 52)

3.  A live ball appeal on leaving early requires a tag of the base or the player.  The dead ball appeal does not.

4.  You should rule on the appeal when it is clear to you that an appeal is being made.

5.  The appeal must be made "before the next legal or illegal pitch."  (9.4)  There is no provision for an intervening play disallowing an appeal, but that's mainly because it's stupid in fastpitch to attempt a live ball appeal after the ball has been returned to the circle.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, VolUmp said:

There is a Softball SubForum for your post. 

Do you redirect all the FED, NCAA and Pro questions to their sub-forums?

This is a GENERAL forum, directed to umpires of both softball and baseball.

Until you can show me in the general guidelines that this is a baseball site.   You've already had your ears pinned once by the admins for making up your own rules.

[LMSANS]

7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

There is a Softball SubForum for your post. 

This is a situational post and deserves to be in this forum. If you don't want to read softball situations then skip it. You don't get to direct traffic on this site.

[beerguy55]

As far as I know USSSA, NSA, ASA, and Softball Canada fwiw all allow dead ball verbal appeals.  

If the pitcher is in the circle and players are on their base, that is when action is over and the verbal appeal can occur.

So, it really comes down to if the play was still going when the pitcher threw to first.  If the play was still going (ie. R1 rounding third, pitcher figuring out what to do), then the verbal appeal isn't valid, she would have to throw to first, and the play to home is just part of the continuous action - the appeal can occur at the end of action.  

If the play was considered stopped, with the pitcher in the circle and the runner standing on third base, then the verbal appeal would be valid, and then at that point the runner leaving third base would be illegal, would it not?

[CJK]

14 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If the play was considered stopped, with the pitcher in the circle and the runner standing on third base, then the verbal appeal would be valid, and then at that point the runner leaving third base would be illegal, would it not?

In general, true, but there's also this:

Quote

If the pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the 16-foot circle, the pitcher makes an attempt on any of the runners or a fake throw is made, this rule does not apply. 

So I don't think I'd try to grab an out specifically for the runner reacting to the pitcher.

There's a whole lot of HTBT in this one, but I like to think that at the point where the ball had returned to the circle and the coaches started hollering, regardless of whether I were at the plate or on the bases, I'd have called TIME and asked them what they were trying to do, which might have prevented the rest of the silliness.