Steal of home/balk?

[kansascityblue]

Greetings all - first time post. I had a situation in a tournament U-14 semi-final last fall that I think I booted. Would like your thoughts. Situation: R3 with 2 outs. RH pitcher in the set position from the stretch. R3 breaks for the plate on a straight steal. Batter backs out of box and catcher comes up to take the throw from the pitcher. Pitcher throws to the catcher but DOES NOT disengage the rubber. Runner get caught in rundown and tagged out for third out. I had the bases and was in 'C' position. Third base coach wants a balk call since pitcher didn't step off. I ruled that the pitcher has the right to make a play at home just like any other base, and since the batter vacated the box, I judged the pitcher's action as a throw, not as a pitch. Pitcher took one step towards home on the throw. Did I kick this one? Is any 'throw' to home plate considered a pitch if it is from the rubber? 

[Jocko]

You tell me... Is a throw from F1 considered a pitch if F1 is on the rubber? If F1 didn't disengage before he 'pitched' then it's a pitch same as any other. If he didn't disengage legally before he threw to the plat (which sounds like what happened) he balked. Put it this way. If F1 did the same thing with R1 or R2, would it be a balk? If so, it's a balk with R3. Matters not whether batter stays in or steps out, the pitching regulations don't change.

[cyclonehokiece]

Greetings all - first time post. I had a situation in a tournament U-14 semi-final last fall that I think I booted. Would like your thoughts. Situation: R3 with 2 outs. RH pitcher in the set position from the stretch. R3 breaks for the plate on a straight steal. Batter backs out of box and catcher comes up to take the throw from the pitcher. Pitcher throws to the catcher but DOES NOT disengage the rubber. Runner get caught in rundown and tagged out for third out. I had the bases and was in 'C' position. Third base coach wants a balk call since pitcher didn't step off. I ruled that the pitcher has the right to make a play at home just like any other base, and since the batter vacated the box, I judged the pitcher's action as a throw, not as a pitch. Pitcher took one step towards home on the throw. Did I kick this one? Is any 'throw' to home plate considered a pitch if it is from the rubber? 

What do you mean by catcher comes up, just stands up or is he now, for instance, on or in front of the plate.  Just trying to get the picture in my mind right.

[kansascityblue]

Cyclonehokiece -Catcher leaves his box and is now in fair territory when F1 makes the throw. Jockp - I am getting hung up on this line in 8.01(b)--- From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

[cyclonehokiece]

I will give you both since you didn't specify rule code (and I assume you are not using NCAA)

 

OBR 2.00 Definition of Pitch

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.
Rule 2.00 (Pitch) Comment: All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown
balls.

FED 2-28-2 Article 2

A live ball delivered to the batter is a pitch. The term implies a legally delivered ball unless otherwise stated. When a pitcher commits a balk and completes his delivery to the batter, or delivers and illegal pitch, it is not considered a pitch, because the ball became dead at the time of the infraction.

 

This should answer your question pretty quickly about whether it was a pitch or not. 

[bam]

So the batter stepped out of the batters box before the pitcher delivered?  If that's the case, I've got a 2 srtikes on the batter and let the catcher tag R3. 

[NFUA_44]

NoThing to get hung up on. He is in contact with the pitching plate. From there he can deliver a pitch or step and throw to a base. The whole point of stepping off in this sitch is so he can be considered an infielder (by stepping off) and can now legally throw to the plate to make a play, not a pitch.

[scrounge]

So the batter stepped out of the batters box before the pitcher delivered?  If that's the case, I've got a 2 srtikes on the batter and let the catcher tag R3. 

 

That aftermath should be entertaining

[cyclonehokiece]

So the batter stepped out of the batters box before the pitcher delivered?  If that's the case, I've got a 2 srtikes on the batter and let the catcher tag R3. 

I guess this could of made this moot if there was one strike on the batter and KCblue's partner knew the rule.

[Jocko]

Cyclonehokiece -Catcher leaves his box and is now in fair territory when F1 makes the throw. Jockp - I am getting hung up on this line in 8.01(b)--- From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

That's your answer.

He may do 1 of 3 things:

1. Deliver to the batter (Pitch)

2. Step and throw to a BASE

3. Step off

[bam]

FED rules, of course. 

[kansascityblue]

I appreciate the responses. Blown call - I shoulda called a balk. As that play ended an inning, I actually was giving my partner the 'need information' sign, but he left me hanging. Credit to the OC for making his point and walking away calmly.

[scrounge]

Let's do a thought experiment on this one.....say the pitcher was properly in the set and delivered the ball in an otherwise legal manner. The catcher is now out of position - but so is the batter. For this scenario, let's say the catcher stepped straight ahead, so that the pitch/throw could plausibly be called a pitch. Now what? Catcher's obstruction?

[NFUA_44]

Let's do a thought experiment on this one.....say the pitcher was properly in the set and delivered the ball in an otherwise legal manner. The catcher is now out of position - but so is the batter. For this scenario, let's say the catcher stepped straight ahead, so that the pitch/throw could plausibly be called a pitch. Now what? Catcher's obstruction?

Top of my head I'm still calling the balk if he catches it BEFORE it reaches the plate. It never got there, ergo he never delivered a legal pitch. If it is a balk when a dropped ball dosent cross a foul line, but becomes a ball when it does that is where I'm hanging my hat at the moment with just my phone and no manuals at hand.

[Jocko]

I don't have an OBR equivelant, but your partner missed a possible call besides the balk.

Fed 8-3-1-c "Each runner other than the B-R is awarded one base when he is attempting to steal...the catcher obstructs the batter such as stepping on or across home."

If HP deems it no balk and F1 didn't disengage, then it is a pitch. If F2 steps on or across to receive said pitch, he has committed OBS. No contact necessary.

[Jocko]

Let's do a thought experiment on this one.....say the pitcher was properly in the set and delivered the ball in an otherwise legal manner. The catcher is now out of position - but so is the batter. For this scenario, let's say the catcher stepped straight ahead, so that the pitch/throw could plausibly be called a pitch. Now what? Catcher's obstruction?

Great minds, huh? Lol

P.S. Shut up Rolo :BD:

[NFUA_44]

^^^to funny Gregg. KC, this is exactly why we all come here and post the good bad and ugly. Welcome aboard, you will find a great brotherhood and tons of knowledge!

And Rolo he already warned ya, I will get the hook out. JUST SAY NO to restrictions!

[semper_fi_72]

OBR 7.07

It is a BALK

[sdix00]

KCB - 

GREAT first post. 

 

OBR:

Catcher's Interference AND a Balk (7.07 supercedes 6.08c when R3 is stealing on the pitch.)  ALL runners are awarded the next base on the Balk.  Batter is awarded 1B on the Catcher's Interference.

 

FED:

K2 when the batter Stepped out (WITH BOTH FEET ONLY).  Catcher's Obstruction when the pitch was received by the Catcher with his foot on /across HP.

 

Batter is awarded 1B, but ONLY Stealing runners are awarded the next base on the Catcher's Obstruction, so the stealing R3 scores. 

 

It is important to understand that there is no "Catcher's Balk" in FED (no 7.07 equivalent).   There is only Catcher's Obstruction (i.e. Interference).

 

Note - 

All three codes have a rule like OBR's 6.08c.    OBR and NCAA are the only codes with an additional Balk penalty, and it ONLY happens when R3 is stealing on the pitch.

 

-----

The REAL challenge is what would happen if there were 2 strikes on the batter at the Time of Pitch.   

[cyclonehokiece]

KCB - 

GREAT first post. 

 

OBR:

Catcher's Interference AND a Balk (7.07 supercedes 6.08c when R3 is stealing on the pitch.)  ALL runners are awarded the next base on the Balk. 

 

FED:

K2 when the batter Stepped out. K3 when the pitch was delivered.   Batter Runner is out and no run may score when the BR is put out before reaching 1B.

 

There is no "Catcher's Balk" in FED.   There is only Catcher's Obstruction (i.e. Interference).  ONLY Stealing runners are awarded the next base on the Catcher's Obstruction. 

So  sdix, if the batter didn't have one strike on him (something I said,  not the OP) the batter would have 2 strikes called on him and the runner would score in FED?

[Jocko]

Take it a step further... HP calls and signals OBS. DDB, correct? Runners are advancing with R3. F2 air mails it to the fence in CF. All rnners score on the throwing error. Let it stand?

[NFUA_44]

Take it a step further... HP calls and signals OBS. DDB, correct? Runners are advancing with R3. F2 air mails it to the fence in CF. All rnners score on the throwing error. Let it stand?

FED balk is immediate dead. Its a balk before irs OBS, I would presume, but I'm also not the FED guru either

[Jocko]

Take it a step further... HP calls and signals OBS. DDB, correct? Runners are advancing with R3. F2 air mails it to the fence in CF. All rnners score on the throwing error. Let it stand?

FED balk is immediate dead. Its a balk before irs OBS, I would presume, but I'm also not the FED guru eitherIf you dont call balk on F1, there's no balk. It's only F2 OBS. As Steve said, no such thing as a 'catcher's balk'

[sdix00]

KCB - 

GREAT first post. 

 

OBR:

Catcher's Interference AND a Balk (7.07 supercedes 6.08c when R3 is stealing on the pitch.)  ALL runners are awarded the next base on the Balk. 

 

FED:

K2 when the batter Stepped out. K3 when the pitch was delivered.   Batter Runner is out and no run may score when the BR is put out before reaching 1B.

 

There is no "Catcher's Balk" in FED.   There is only Catcher's Obstruction (i.e. Interference).  ONLY Stealing runners are awarded the next base on the Catcher's Obstruction. 

So  sdix, if the batter didn't have one strike on him (something I said,  not the OP) the batter would have 2 strikes called on him and the runner would score in FED?

 

 

Great question.  

 

FED:

The batter gets a penalty strike for stepping out of the box.   If the pitcher then continues and delivers a LEGAL pitch (no matter how bad), the pitch is ruled a strike. 

 

So in your question - the batter can only be charged with a penalty trike for completely leaving the box during the pitch.   He CANNOT be charged a second trike on the pitch, because there was no legal pitch - due to the Catcher's Obstruction. 

[NFUA_44]

There is no such thing as a catcher balk, I understand, but if he steps out and makes the catch before the plate its a balk, or are u saying its f2 OBS/INT? I'm a so confuzzed!

Btw, I'm calling a balk on F1 for not delivering a pitch, and I very well could be dead wrong, but I will sell the sh!t out of it