Little League Tournament Rule 9. MANDATORY PLAY – CONTINUOUS BATTING ORDER

[JAG]

Does anyone else think the new Continuous Batting Order Rule has a lot of holes in it?

What happens if a player on a 12 man roster sustains a season ending injury?  Do they gain a competitive advantage by only having to bat 11 players?  What if another player has a conflict with a wedding or something else they have to attend? Do they then get to play with only a 10 man batting order?  What if a manager isn’t deterred by the “making a travesty of the game” rule and asks a player not to show up?   The answer those questions from The Eastern Regional Office was "A game will be played regardless of whether all of the players are available at the time of the game." 

When I asked about whether it would create a competitive advantage for one team, they replied "These topics and questions were discussed when writing the new rule change and on a yearly basis will be reviewed to create the best experience for our players and volunteers. "

I have been involved in Little League for 30 years.  I didn't think they could make a rule worse than the "All 12 year olds must make the Majors" rule.  They just proved me wrong.

[ArchAngel72]

I don't get the rub.  If a kid doesn't make the game then he is not on the game time roster correct?

 

There are obvious things written about injuries so those would still apply correct?

 

What's the concern with all 12 years are in the Majors division?

 

[Mudisfun]

In prior years, if a team did not have X players at the site (I think 13?) the team lost the availability of a coach for that game. And we all know that the coaches are the reason the team wins or loses; the players are just an after thought. 

Moving to the CBO format removed the coaching/number of players issue from what I understand, so the concern is that unscrupulous adults will try and game the system to their advantage. Jackie Robinson West ring any bells?

[ArchAngel72]

@Mudisfun  Yeah they removed the 2 coach thing also all teams are allowed 3 now I believe.  That was the dumbest hamstring thing ever.. Yeah because you only have 11 kids you HAVE to send one out as a base coach... I mean come on...

[JAG]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I don't get the rub.  If a kid doesn't make the game then he is not on the game time roster correct?

 

There are obvious things written about injuries so those would still apply correct?

 

What's the concern with all 12 years are in the Majors division?

 

If a team shows up with 13 players and another shows up with 10 and both have to use a continuous batting order, who gets to the top of their lineup faster?  Not an advantage?

There are no rules addressing replacing tournament team players on rosters that I am aware of.

The concern with all 12 year olds making the Majors is that it is basically affirmative action.   I currently have 12 year olds, that probably would contribute more to a Minor League team, taking the spot of more talented 10 or 11 year olds, on my regular season team.   Why is that good for the game, or the kid, who is playing at a level over his head?

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

In prior years, if a team did not have X players at the site (I think 13?) the team lost the availability of a coach for that game. And we all know that the coaches are the reason the team wins or loses; the players are just an after thought. 

Moving to the CBO format removed the coaching/number of players issue from what I understand, so the concern is that unscrupulous adults will try and game the system to their advantage. Jackie Robinson West ring any bells?

So now they create a rule that almost guarantees teams will only carry 12 players.  But if someone does carry a 13th or 14th player, they may get an extra at bat, but are now not guaranteed to get any playing time in the field.  Keep the 9 best defensive players in the field and water down the offense.    Little League has lost its mind.

 

[JAG]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

@Mudisfun  Yeah they removed the 2 coach thing also all teams are allowed 3 now I believe.  That was the dumbest hamstring thing ever.. Yeah because you only have 11 kids you HAVE to send one out as a base coach... I mean come on...

Who needs a third coach.  There is nothing to strategize.  No need to strategically pull a kid after 2 innings, and then reinsert him in the last inning, so that you start and finish a game with the best defender in the field.  He can stay in the field the whole game now.   Cant get a player, who's best contribution to the game is his speed, into a game, by inserting him as a special pinch runner, because they got rid of that rule too.  

[Mudisfun]

43 minutes ago, JAG said:

If a team shows up with 13 players and another shows up with 10 and both have to use a continuous batting order, who gets to the top of their lineup faster?  Not an advantage?

There are no rules addressing replacing tournament team players on rosters that I am aware of.

The concern with all 12 year olds making the Majors is that it is basically affirmative action.   I currently have 12 year olds, that probably would contribute more to a Minor League team, taking the spot of more talented 10 or 11 year olds, on my regular season team.   Why is that good for the game, or the kid, who is playing at a level over his head?

I guess a lot of this issue depends on the league in which you are pulling your players from. When my now 19 year old son played, our league was 230-250 kids with anywhere from 1-3 Majors teams. So when it came to Allstar time, right off the bat we would lose kids who would not be available throughout the time period prescribed by the tournament. This meant often, to fill the team we would be pulling up 11YO's and even a couple time 10YO's. Guess what? If we drew another of the weaker leagues, we might get to play 3 games versus if we were scheduled with the bigger leagues and then it was 2 and done.

Fast forward to my daughter who just aged out last year. The two leagues in Costa Mesa merged over the Covid year, creating a new league that is roughly 550-600 kids. Suddenly we have 6-8 Majors team and our 12U Allstar roster kicks a$$. In this scenario, having a 13 kid roster is an advantage as we have 13 kids who can run, hit, throw and pitch. 

The point of this diatribe is that there are plusses and minuses in both ways of running the tournament; neither inherently more insidious than the other.

As for the 12 YO's need to play majors, I have zero issue with that. Yes, they may be overmatched, but the program is a Youth Development program that teaches kids through baseball. It is not a baseball program at the basic level. If the rules are not to your liking, then there are other programs available which may fit the mindset you are looking for. This is not an invite to an argument, just a point. Locally one of our leagues folded and resurrected itself as a PONY program due to some of the LL rules they did not like and did not want to follow. When push came to shove, they chose to align with a program which met what in their eyes was what the participants in their league wanted. The parents who wanted their kids in a LL program found the local league they now aligned with and the others stayed with PONY.

[SH0102]

15 hours ago, JAG said:

Who needs a third coach.  There is nothing to strategize.  No need to strategically pull a kid after 2 innings, and then reinsert him in the last inning, so that you start and finish a game with the best defender in the field.  He can stay in the field the whole game now.   Cant get a player, who's best contribution to the game is his speed, into a game, by inserting him as a special pinch runner, because they got rid of that rule too.  

Just curious, are you asking all this as an umpire or as a dad/coach?  If you’re asking as an umpire, I’d say you really should not have any care or concern about competitive advantages, you work the rules for your association/league and that’s it.

If you’re asking as a dad/coach, be thankful that you have kids that want to play, and stay with me here, by rule actually get to play.  Do you want to be the coach who tells players to stay home so you can compete with that 10 player roster team?  
 

If you really want to tackle this, you could create a rotation of 10 of your 13 who are “assigned to show up” with one on reserve (for someone who gets sick for ex).  You’ll still have a team of ten that isn’t your “best” ten but you’ll get to the top of your lineup faster.

I had a summer coach who did this for my sons team and while originally I thought it was bad, it was nice to have a couple games “off” where we could make plans as a family bc we knew he wasn’t on the game or the “reserve” call.

Everyone got to play the same number of games, and for the parents, you knew your kid was actually going to play, rather than bat a couple times and play one inning in field.  Won’t fix your “best team” situation but is a way to meet in the middle

[ArchAngel72]

18 hours ago, JAG said:

If a team shows up with 13 players and another shows up with 10 and both have to use a continuous batting order, who gets to the top of their lineup faster?  Not an advantage?

There are no rules addressing replacing tournament team players on rosters that I am aware of.

The concern with all 12 year olds making the Majors is that it is basically affirmative action.   I currently have 12 year olds, that probably would contribute more to a Minor League team, taking the spot of more talented 10 or 11 year olds, on my regular season team.   Why is that good for the game, or the kid, who is playing at a level over his head?

 

[JAG]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Just curious, are you asking all this as an umpire or as a dad/coach?  If you’re asking as an umpire, I’d say you really should not have any care or concern about competitive advantages, you work the rules for your association/league and that’s it.

If you’re asking as a dad/coach, be thankful that you have kids that want to play, and stay with me here, by rule actually get to play.  Do you want to be the coach who tells players to stay home so you can compete with that 10 player roster team?  
 

If you really want to tackle this, you could create a rotation of 10 of your 13 who are “assigned to show up” with one on reserve (for someone who gets sick for ex).  You’ll still have a team of ten that isn’t your “best” ten but you’ll get to the top of your lineup faster.

I had a summer coach who did this for my sons team and while originally I thought it was bad, it was nice to have a couple games “off” where we could make plans as a family bc we knew he wasn’t on the game or the “reserve” call.

Everyone got to play the same number of games, and for the parents, you knew your kid was actually going to play, rather than bat a couple times and play one inning in field.  Won’t fix your “best team” situation but is a way to meet in the middle

I am a coach that has been involved with Little League for 30 years.  

What you laid out is a perfect example of how to beat the system, that I hope no coach uses.  But its almost certain that someone will. 

I started this thread on here just to open some discussion, in the hopes that Little League might take notice of some issues. If there is a blog/thread that Little League endorses or uses, I would love to open up some discussion there.

 

 

[JAG]

23 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Those "certain circumstances" mean that a local Board member has to approach a parent and basically tell them that their son/daughter "isnt a very good player" and ask them to sign a waiver allowing them to play in the Minors, where they would probably have more fun.  

Awkward at the very least.  

30 years ago my oldest son just didn't make the Majors.  He still had a great time playing in the Minors and actually got to play catcher. (Something that would not have happened if he played in the Majors)

[ArchAngel72]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Those "certain circumstances" mean that a local Board member has to approach a parent and basically tell them that their son/daughter "isnt a very good player" and ask them to sign a waiver allowing them to play in the Minors, where they would probably have more fun.  

Awkward at the very least.  

30 years ago my oldest son just didn't make the Majors.  He still had a great time playing in the Minors and actually got to play catcher. (Something that would not have happened if he played in the Majors)

And whats the difference between this process now and when you did it other than possibly the actual waiver?

Most 12 year olds playing down with 10 -8 yr olds are going to realize typically WHY they are still in Minors.  Yes its awkward but so is having a 12 yr old pitching to an 8 yr old.