Rule interp asked of me today...

[StoneyK]

R1, outs don't matter. Batter hits trouble pop to short RF, R1 tagging, ball is dropped and BR rounds and passes R1. Now BR is out but is the force removed with that out or can a play be made on R1 going to 2B?

I say that force is removed and R1 cannot be doubled up by force.

What say the group?

[Mr Umpire]

Force removed.

Any time a trailing runner is put out for any reason, all preceding runners are NOT forced at that time. Only trailing runners of that runner just put out will still have the force play.

In this case, the BR is out. So, all preceding runners will have the force removed.

[StoneyK]

OK, now for pt2. my partner >argued< for lack of a better term that you are penalizing the defense with a chance at a dbl play because of an offensive mistake. I still state that force is off but he has a point.

[Mr Umpire]

You are penalizing no one. You didn't remove the force. The offense did and they are penalized by the out.

Let's put it this way. If the defense doesn't try for 2B and just throws the ball to F1 for whatever reason and realize BR is out. Will you allow the pitcher to pitch with R1 still on 1B? Of course you will, you do not have more than 1 runner on 1B. If you uphold the force, you have to make R1 go to 2B before the pitcher can pitch b/c he is forced to vacate his previously occupied base due to a force.

Also, will you allow the defense to just go over to 1B to tag R1 who is standing on the base and call him out b/c he doesn't have legal rights to 1B? No. He gained legal right to the base as soon as BR is out.

So, based on those points, will you still keep the force play at 2B? No. All forces are removed as soon as BR is out for any reason.

What about running lane violation on BR? As soon as he is out with NO intervening play situation, all runners return to their base at TOP. The offense just removed any possibility of a DP then.

Who got penalized then? The offense again.

He has no point. The rules do NOT support his theory in any way and hopefully, never will.

[Mr Umpire]

Definition of Force play in OBR.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base

by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

As soon as BR is out, he is no longer a runner. Therefore, force play is removed.

[StoneyK]

Hey, I agree, I'm just stating his side.

[Mr Umpire]

Hey, I agree, I'm just stating his side.

I'm just giving you points to better explain why he needs to quit thinking that way. He is going to get himself in trouble if he calls a DP on a force play where the BR is already out.

[Tyennie]

I'm just giving you points to better explain why he needs to quit thinking that way. He is going to get himself in trouble if he calls a DP on a force play where the BR is already out.

here is one more example: R1 and the BR hits a grounder to F3, who steps on 1B and throws to 2B, R1 must be tagged going in, since the force is removed at the time F3 touched first base.

[AirForceBlue]

I understand that the BR is out for passing R1.

Is the play still live until there is no opportunity for the defensive team to put out a runner and all runners occupy a base?

Normally, this is not a "dead ball" situation, correct?

AFB

[LMSANS]

I understand that the BR is out for passing R1.

Is the play still live until there is no opportunity for the defensive team to put out a runner and all runners occupy a base?

Normally, this is not a "dead ball" situation, correct?

AFB

That's correct...the ball remains live.

[PeteBooth]

OK, now for pt2. my partner >argued< for lack of a better term that you are penalizing the defense with a chance at a dbl play because of an offensive mistake. I still state that force is off but he has a point.

How does he have a point?

from the OP

ball is dropped

Even though the defense erred ie; THEIR fielder dropped a fly ball the defense STILL gets an out because the BR passed R1 vs.

a possible R1/R2 situation because of the error on the part of F9.

Here the defense erred but still gets an out.

Pete Booth

[catoblue]

If you've ever watched a defense turn a routine DP, there's a reason they go to 2B then 1B, and that is so that the force is in effect for both R1 and BR. No need for a tag or run-down sitch. a simple force at both bases. Even when the ball is hit to F3, a good F3 will throw to 2B, then get back to the bag for the return throw to 1B.