Pitching

[Scottw]

Question is how far can the pitcher turn his shoulders to check on the runner at first??

[Umpire in Chief]

He can twist, but not jerk (In FED). OBR depends on the level to what I'll tolerate, but by rule any turn of the shoulders is a balk.

Welcome aboard.

[UmpTTS43]

Prior to coming "set", the pitcher may turn his shoulders. Once "set", turning his shoulders is more likely than not to draw a balk call. You will not see in the rules that turning the shoulders to first base, in and of itself, a balk, however it is considered a "fient" to first. That is the reasoning for the balk call.

To answer your question, it really depends on the age group. The lower the age, the more leeway given. In HS and college, no turn is allowed.

[someoneinca]

I do LL Juniors and Seniors which are basically OBR. I do not allow them to turn their shoulders after they have come set. Although the rule book does not specifically state this, it is considered an attempt to deceive the runner.

[UmpJM]

... it is considered an attempt to deceive the runner.

someoneinca,

I see pitchers attempt to deceive runners all the time, and its perfectly legal.

Why do you not allow this?

JM

[mstaylor]

I do LL Juniors and Seniors which are basically OBR. I do not allow them to turn their shoulders after they have come set. Although the rule book does not specifically state this, it is considered an attempt to deceive the runner.

It isn't considered an attempt to decieve, it is considered a feint to first, which is a balk.

[someoneinca]

It isn't considered an attempt to decieve, it is considered a feint to first, which is a balk.

I was instructed by veteran district umpires to rule it as an attempt to deceive the runner under rule 8.05 Note.

Rule 8.05 Note:"the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner."

This is how I was taught to call it.

[UmpJM]

someoneinca,

I would suggest you were improperly instructed.

I wrote an article a while back for another website in which I nominated the sentence you cite as the single most misunderstood sentence in the OBR rulebook.

I come across way too many umpires who think that sentence IS the balk rule. I assure you, it is not.

Rather it is a "comment" regarding the application of 8.05(a-m) and the two ARs which immediately precede. And, to understand it properly, it must be taken in context with the following sentence:

If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent” of the pitcher should govern. ...

If there is NOT any doubt, there is no reason to consider the pitcher's intent. If the pitcher turns his shoulders to occupied 1B after having "come set", is there any doubt in your mind as to whether he has balked, regardless of his intent?

Personally, I think thre "intent to deceive" comment could only apply to two of the 8.05 proscriptions, and is irrelevant in regard to the others.

JM

[someoneinca]

someoneinca,

I would suggest you were improperly instructed.

I wrote an article a while back for another website in which I nominated the sentence you cite as the single most misunderstood sentence in the OBR rulebook.

I come across way too many umpires who think that sentence IS the balk rule. I assure you, it is not.

Rather it is a "comment" regarding the application of 8.05(a-m) and the two ARs which immediately precede. And, to understand it properly, it must be taken in context with the following sentence:

If there is NOT any doubt, there is no reason to consider the pitcher's intent. If the pitcher turns his shoulders to occupied 1B after having "come set", is there any doubt in your mind as to whether he has balked, regardless of his intent?

Personally, I think thre "intent to deceive" comment could only apply to two of the 8.05 proscriptions, and is irrelevant in regard to the others.

JM

I have never actually utilized that note, I have only used the specified provisions (a-m) and the ARs when enforcing the balk rule. I can see how using the feint to first works much better. I was just reiterating the instruction given to me by district umpires.

Thanks for correcting me though.

You can always learn something new about the rule book.

[mstaylor]

UmpJM:

I agree that it is one of two most misquoted and misunderstood rules in the book. The other is the farce rule. It is one case and one case only and many try to apply it to many things they don't like.

someoneinca:

It is good to learn new things. I try to remember to use as few words as possible to explain things to coaches. I have a friend that says to try to keep all explanations to five words or less. I don't know that is always possible but a good rule of thumb to keep in mind.

I was teaching a clinic Saturday and a good friend of mine was attending. We were working on pick-off mechanics and we had an AAA pitcher doing the moves. He made a move to second, landing his foot just behind the rubber, took a second step but never threw. My buddy called nothing, which was correct but when I asked why it wasn't a balk, his answer was IITBTSB. I was playing coach and kept after him to explain why it wasn't a balk. Eventually I told him all he had to say was,"He gained direction, he doesn't have to throw." Really he could have gotten away with just the second part and kept his five words but I thought the move itself would look odd to a coach so I added the first sentence.

Edited February 25, 2009 by mstaylor

[someoneinca]

I have a balk question then:

When a pitcher disengages by stepping in front of the rubber with his or her pivot foot and does not throw to a base (either with a jump step or just stepping off in front instead of in back), which part of the rule would you use in calling a balk? Would you say that it appears to be a move home to the runners?

[UmpJM]

someoneinca,

8.01(a)3.

JM

[someoneinca]

someoneinca,

8.01(a)3.

JM

Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure which rule to use because there isn't a rule that specifically states he has to step off to the back with the pivot foot (it just says disengage with the pivot foot first). I was curious because the same people instructed me to use the "looks like he's going home" for this as instructed me to use the "deceive the runner" part for turning the shoulders.

[UmpJM]

someoneinca,

For the explicit statement that he must step backward in disengaging, see 8.01(e).

I would just say "illegally disengaged" should the manager request an explanation.

JM

[someoneinca]

Thank you. When I looked at it the way you suggested, I realized that you can interpret it to mean that in order to become an infielder, the pitcher must step off backwards. I ordered a copy of J/R Sunday night, so that should help me with some of these situations. I have also been going through the Little League Rules Instruction Manual, but it didn't mention either of these situations.

Thank you once again for your helpfulness. I have noticed that this forum seems to be the most civil one out there and I appreciate that along with everyone who keeps it that way.

[UmpJM]

someoneinca,

I had a lot of people help me with this stuff when I was getting started, so I'm happy to help if I can. I know I'm a little "terse" in some responses, but it's not meant to be rude.

Buying the J/R was one of the best investments I ever made in learning the rules and how to apply them. It does a great job of explaining the concepts and principles underlying the rules that can't really be found elsewhere.

I believe this is the most "civil" board on which I participate. You can have a "vigorous" discussion with someone about some point and it never gets personal, no matter how "vigorous".

I mostly credit Warren for setting the "tone" when he started this board, and I applaud all the contributors, who I find knowledgeable, and they strike me as people who care about the quality of their umpiring and are happy to share their knowledge and experience -- and opinions!

JM

P.S. If you REALLY want to understand balks, get a copy of the Jim Evans "Pitching Regulations and Balks" video. Read the J/R section on the subject 1st.

[mstaylor]

If the pitcher jump steps he may land anywhere as long as he steps toword the base he he is picking at. The pivot foot may land beside, in front, behind or on top of the rubber. If picking to first he must throw, the jump step is considered in contact. If he disengages, steps backward, then he can feint to any base. If he disengages forward it is a balk.

Remember if he jump steps and throws the ball in DB territory it is only one base. If he properly disegages and throws in DB territory, it's two bases.