Choice or not?

[mstaylor]

R2 and R3. 1 out, 1-2 count. The catcher interferes with the batter's swing as he hits a deep fly ball to right field that is caught. The right fielder attempts to throw out R3 but throws the ball out of play. The manager of the hitting team decides he wants the option of the result of the play. After the ball is put back in play, the defense appeals that R3 left third early. The umpire sustains the appeal. The manager of the team at bat now wants the catcher's interference enforced.

This is a question from another board. I know my answer but am interested in other's thoughts.

[BrianC14]

R2 and R3. 1 out, 1-2 count. The catcher interferes with the batter's swing as he hits a deep fly ball to right field that is caught. The right fielder attempts to throw out R3 but throws the ball out of play. The manager of the hitting team decides he wants the option of the result of the play. After the ball is put back in play, the defense appeals that R3 left third early. The umpire sustains the appeal. The manager of the team at bat now wants the catcher's interference enforced.

This is a question from another board. I know my answer but am interested in other's thoughts.

Well the simple answer is that he already made his choice, and CI wasn't it. :cheers:

[Umpire in Chief]

He only gets one answer and once he gives it he has to live with it.

[UmpJM]

Brian &/or Warren,

Just for fun, let's back up a little.

I'm the Offensive Manager and the initial play has just become relaxed.

Me: Brian/Warren, may I have time?

Y'all: Sure John, what's up?

Me: I thought I heard you call interference on the catcher, right? So, what's the deal? Shouldn't my batter be on 1B?

Y'all: .... ? (Your turn)

JM

[BrianC14]

Brian &/or Warren,

Just for fun, let's back up a little.

I'm the Offensive Manager and the initial play has just become relaxed.

Me: Brian/Warren, may I have time?

Y'all: Sure John, what's up?

Me: I thought I heard you call interference on the catcher, right? So, what's the deal? Shouldn't my batter be on 1B?

Y'all: .... ? (Your turn)

JM

Me: "I'll put your batter at first base if you want me to enforce the catcher's interference".

My reasoning:

The offensive manager has the option to accept the results of the continuous action rather than have the interference enforced. HOWEVER, such manager must excercise this option on his own initiative; the umpire does not offer such an option.

So if 'John' insists upon the CI, then R2 and R3 are going back to their TOP bases. No doubt that "John" is going to have some heartburn when he realizes he took a run off the board, but as an umpire, I cannot advise him of the cost/benefit of either of the choices. In the end, we as umpires know that the CI was his best choice. If he chooses the results of the play, then we're going to have an out for R3 leaving early.

Edited January 27, 2009 by BrianC14

[UmpJM]

Brian,

So, I've got a choice here, right? I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying my runners score if my batter is out? If I pick putting the batter at 1B, what happens to the runners?

JM

[BrianC14]

Brian,

So, I've got a choice here, right? I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying my runners score if my batter is out? If I pick putting the batter at 1B, what happens to the runners?

JM

Sorry, JM - I've been editing my response... As above, if 'John' wants the CI enforced, R2 and R3 are returning to their TOP bases.

[UmpJM]

Brian,

I haven't picked yet. I'm still trying to understand my choices.

Get back into "role" and respond to my "coach questions".

JM

[BrianC14]

Brian,

I haven't picked yet. I'm still trying to understand my choices.

Get back into "role" and respond to my "coach questions".

JM

Oh, respond to the coach? OK...

Me: Go sit yer arse down, you foul-mouthed arrogant jerk!

Nah, just kidding.

I'm not going to OFFER a choice to the coach, and that's by rule/interp.

If he wants the CI, I give it. If we give him CI, then R2 and R3 are back at their TOP bases.

If he elects the play (and by the way, he only gets ONE choice) then upon proper appeal, R3 is going to be out.

Then we're probably going to hear from 'Coach John' again. And who knows, maybe he'll be "out" as well. :smachhead:

[UmpTTS43]

At the conclusion of a play where CI has occured, you enforce the interference, including putting runners back and, yes, taking a run off the board as in the original sitch. (Unless, of course, all runners including the batter runner advanced one base.) After enforcing the CI penalty, you should give the offensive manager the choice of play or penalty. If the interference penalty was enforced at that time, R3 would have been returned to third and the appeal would have been moot.

As far as the original OP, I haven't decided what I would do if that senario would happen to unfold.

[UmpJM]

Out of role

In regard to 'offering" the coach the option, despite the cite provided by Brian earlier, J/R actually recommends offering the option in "...all amateur codes..." (check the note, Brian); Carl Childress also recommends this in the BRD. Since I don't call professional games, I follow this practice.

Back in role

Me:

Brian,

So, you're saying I can pick between having the 2 runs scored and my batter is out, or I can pick to have bases loaded and nobody's out. Is that right?

alternatively....

Me:

TT,

What's going on here? Why'd you send my runners back? They get to score on a CI don't they!?!?!?

[Umpire in Chief]

As an umpire I'd never offer the choice they need to request it. I may be pretty lenient in what I consider a request. But I'd confirm what he wants me to do because once he makes a choice that's it. I'm not going to be telling him what his options are or what the possible outcomes are.

[UmpTTS43]

Coach,

On a CI call, unless all runners, including your batter runner, advance one base, your batter is awarded first and all other runners return to their base at TOP unless forced or were attempting to steal at the time of the pitch.

[UmpJM]

Me:

TT,

Thanks. That makes sense. So, since my runners were going on the pitch, my R3 scores, my R2's at 3B, and my batter is at 1B. I'll choose that.

[UmpTTS43]

As an umpire I'd never offer the choice they need to request it. I may be pretty lenient in what I consider a request. But I'd confirm what he wants me to do because once he makes a choice that's it. I'm not going to be telling him what his options are or what the possible outcomes are.

I know that the NCAA wants you to let the coach know he has an option in this instance. Choices are 1) accept the CI penalty or 2) take the result of the play. Since this is a delayed dead ball situation, the coach, usually, will see what the result of the play is.

In the OP, as soon as the ball is dead, I would call time, catcher interference, place BR at first, and R2 and R3 back to their bases.

Coach, you now have an option on this play. Take the CI penalty as is or take an out and I can score your base runners.

The penalty must be enforced first and foremost before any options are given.

[UmpTTS43]

Me:

TT,

Thanks. That makes sense. So, since my runners were going on the pitch, my R3 scores, my R2's at 3B, and my batter is at 1B. I'll choose that.

If, in fact, both runners were off at the pitch, then yes that would be the case. I would have to be convinced that the runners were truely running and not feigning. Especially true if you have a runner at third.

[mstaylor]

I'm going to ask the manager if he wants the penalty or the result of the play. If it's younger baseball, I will even explain what the penalty is.

UmpJM:

The choice is R3 scores, R2 at third and BR is out on the catch. The penalty is going to be bases loaded, one out.

Now is if he chooses the result, the defense can then appeal third and the run comes off the board. When he discovers this he wants to change his mind and take the penalty. My question is does he get to change his mind?

[UmpJM]

Me:

Michael,

Well, I think I want the choice where my R3 scores. But, I thought you awarded my R2 home when they threw the ball out of play. Why doesn't he score? I mean, if he scores too, I'll defintiely take that choice.

[Mr Umpire]

My only question on this is simple (I think). Both runners are awarded HP since the ball went out of play (If the coach chooses the result).

But, if R3 left early and is out on appeal, don't both runs come off the board since a preceding runner was called out for the third out?

[BrianC14]

Out of role

In regard to 'offering" the coach the option, despite the cite provided by Brian earlier, J/R actually recommends offering the option in "...all amateur codes..." (check the note, Brian); Carl Childress also recommends this in the BRD. Since I don't call professional games, I follow this practice.

JM:

On page 118 of the J/R manual, it states: (emphasis mine)

The offensive manager has the option to accept the result etc. etc. etc.... the umpire does not offer such an option. [All Amateur Codes-3]

Where do you read that the options are offered / explained?

[UmpJM]

JM:

On page 118 of the J/R manual, it states: (emphasis mine)

Where do you read that the options are offered / explained?

Brian,

If you go to the "All Amateur Codes" part of the appendix (in my copy, this comes immediately after the NAIA part of the appendix), you will see that #3 says:

3. Since a procedure is not specifically outlined in the rules, amateur umpires may wish to consider offering a coach his option when one exists in the interest of fairness. Professional managers are held responsible for knowing the rules and requesting their options.

In the BRD, Carl Childress (note 261-291) suggests, again for amateur play ,

...Simply: When an option exists, offer it to the coach.

I'll drop my little "role playing" attempt since it doesn't really seem to be "taking".

Personally, I thought Michael's question/sitch was a great one. I've certainly never seen it happen in a game and I had never even considered such a sitch hypothetically. For the record, I concur with the majority who basically said the OM already had his choice, he doesn't get to change it after the defense appeals. This is supported by the MLBUM:

The manager shall make the election to take the play or take the interference penalty by advising the plate umpire immediately following the play, and once made, such election cannot be changed.

To me, this sitch illuminates the principle that there is a lot more to umpiring than knowing the rules and applying them properly to the situation at hand. As I imagined this playing out in my head, it dawned on me that there are a lot of "land mines" in this sitch that the umpire probably wants to avoid.

First, the question raised by a couple of posters of whether or not to offer the option to the coach. Personally, if there is a (meaningful) option for the offense, I'm going to follow the advice of messers. Roder, Childress & Bible and offer it to the coach. I don't think it would be wrong/improper to not offer it, but I think that approach would more likely lead to a $hitstorm in an amateur game.

Next is kind of a "mechanics" question. Do I immediately enforce the penalty (which in this case would involve returning the R2 & R3 to their TOP bases and awarding the BR 1B and nullifying the two "apparently scored" runs) and then, either actively or passively seeing if the offense wants the play instead. I think I would skip this (though I'm still a little "up in the air" on this question) and go right to seeing what the offense's choice was. Again, you certainly wouldn't be "wrong" if you first enfroced the penalty. Just seems like it might be unnecessarily time-consuming.

Third, you are definitely going to be having some conversations with coaches as this unfolds. At the end, when you call the out on the appeal and nullify two runs, the OM is going to be ready to have a stroke!

I mean, he just got 2 outs and had 2 runs nullified on a play where the defense broke the rules. "You can't possibly be serious!!" is an expression I wouldn't be surprised to hear.

My (apparently lame) role-playing exercise was an attempt to try to draw out some of the things you might want to say or avoid saying as you explain the options to the coach on your first conversation so that you are on "rock solid" ground when the second conversation ensues.

I think the really good umpire is the one who not only makes the right call(s) in this sitch, but manages to get through it without dumping anyone (which may prove unavoidable) and prevents a "goat rodeo" from occurring on the field.

JM

[BrianC14]

Found it, JM, thanks for the reference.

Yeah, that's a suggestion, to be sure. I suppose if I had some lower-level of ball, I'd take it under consideration.

Now - let me play devil's advocate: If I were to explain both options, Coach A is certainly going to want the one (I would think) where he has his team scoring R2 and R3. So, he makes that choice, and for the moment, he's happy. Now, as all this is going on, the ball is dead. We haven't had any reason to put the ball back into play, as we're still sorting out the CI vs. the results of the play.

HOWEVER, the defense isn't likely to make their appeal until the ball is put back into play. Once they see that R3 is now allowed to score, THEN they will make their appeal - and it's an appeal that, if upheld, is going to erase those runs.

See where this goes.... ? OC is still going to be an unhappy camper; and I cannot see that allowing him (after the appeal is upheld) to change his option, because then you're going to have DC come unglued, and rightly so, in my opinion.

[UmpJM]

...

See where this goes.... ? OC is still going to be an unhappy camper; and I cannot see that allowing him (after the appeal is upheld) to change his option, because then you're going to have DC come unglued, and rightly so, in my opinion.

Brian,

As I said, I'm not going to allow him to change his "choice" at this point either.

That's exactly my point. After the appeal, the OC is going to go from "reasonably pleased" to "apoplectic" - in a New York minute. It's going to happen so fast, it's going to make your head spin. And, believe it or not, it's all going to be your fault.

Because, in the coach's mind, you didn't explain his options to him properly. Depending on what you did or didn't say in the earlier conversation when you explained his options, he may or may not have a point. That's all.

JM

[BrianC14]

Brian,

As I said, I'm not going to allow him to change his "choice" at this point either.

That's exactly my point. After the appeal, the OC is going to go from "reasonably pleased" to "apoplectic" - in a New York minute. It's going to happen so fast, it's going to make your head spin. And, believe it or not, it's all going to be your fault.

Because, in the coach's mind, you didn't explain his options to him properly. Depending on what you did or didn't say in the earlier conversation when you explained his options, he may or may not have a point. That's all.

JM

Yep, I'm with you on that. Although the OC can vent his spleen all he wants with respect to the explanations, but even I wouldn't have known there'd be an appeal (OK, I'd know that the defense COULD make an appeal based on what I'd seen, but I wouldn't know if they'd realize it at that point). That part is out of my hands at the time the explanations of the options is being handled, and also at the time OC makes his choice. But with regard to the fact that R3 left early, most coaches that are paying attention would be aware of that - in fact, in our high schools, the head coach is usually the one at 3B anyway, so if anyone should know or even suspect that R3 left early, it would be him. If he's unaware of that, well that isn't my problem. And if his argument gets out of hand, following the upheld appeal, then he's going to "eject himself", as they say.

Yes, it would suck, but altering the play/appeal at that point would be giving the offense the advantage for a mistake that they made. Oh well.

By the way, don't quit on the role playing routine - that's been the best part of this thread!

I'm going to have to ask some of our association's Big Dogs if they would offer to explain the options... it's going to be interesting to hear their responses... :smachhead:

Edited January 27, 2009 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

And, believe it or not, it's all going to be your fault.

Because, in the coach's mind, you didn't explain his options to him properly. Depending on what you did or didn't say in the earlier conversation when you explained his options, he may or may not have a point. That's all.

JM

JM, to add further:

I disagree that this is going to be my fault. I can only explain what the rules state about CI penalty, and about the results of the play as it happened. As I said, the defense hasn't yet made their appeal - if I start including that aspect into it, then I'm starting to add in information where I should not be, because I don't know (only the defense knows) if they realize there's an appeal that could be made. That's part of the rules, too, as you of course know - if that information is discussed, then I could be tipping off the defense to the possibility of an appeal.