Check swing hit on hands

[umpire_scott]

Had a situation today where this occurred.  I was BU and my partner's hesitancy created a little bit of a #$%@storm.  I was in A so I could not tell where his hands were when he got hit.  Initially the DC was saying it hit the bat, so it should have been a foul ball.  He of course used the infamous "hands are part of the bat rule".  They must get taught then when they become a coach.  When we corrected him on that he said that the batter can't lean into the pitch.

 

So my question is how often if ever to you call a dead ball ball on the batter?  The pitch was high and would not have been a strike even if it did not hit him.  From my view I could not tell if it was inside or not.  But clearly his swing did bring his hands close to home plate, but he also clearly checked his swing.

[scrounge]

Fairly straightforward....did it him or the bat? If it hit him, did he strike at the ball? Finally, highly unlikely given the placement of the pitch unless he truly intended to try to get hit, did he permit the ball to strike him? Basically, did the ball hit him or did he hit the ball?

 

From everything described, sounds like an HBP. "Coach, the pitch hit him and he didn't offer". I'm not sure what you mean by "how often". Everytime a batter is hit by a pitch, it's a dead ball. What you do afterwards depends on the circumstances, but it's a dead ball every time.

[mstaylor]

The only time it is going to be a ball and not get first is if he does nothing to avoid or leans into it.

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[umpire_scott]

My point was that from my vantage point I could not tell how far he leaned.  So let's say his hands were actually over the plate when they got hit, but the pitch was too high to be called a strike. 

[mstaylor]

Then it is either a HBP or ball, either way the ball is dead. That call is going to be all on the PU.

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[mstaylor]

The only thing you can add to the equation is making sure the PU understands the rule.

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[Rich Ives]

If it was too high to  be a strike then it's a HBP.  It's only a HBP/Dead Ball/Strike if he is hit while in the strike zone.

[treydawgmt]

Rich - it COULD be a HBP/Dead Ball/Ball too.  I've never called THAT one.  My general thought is if it is a ball, it's NOT where it should be and the batter really has to do something stupid to get a ball charged to him.  But it's definitely possible.

 

I've had multiple DC come to me and say things along the lines of "he has to get out of the way" or "he didn't try to avoid it."  Well, when the pitch hits him on the BACK, and he made ANY attempt to move, tough luck.  Teach your pitcher to hit the zone!

[BigUmp56]

If it was too high to  be a strike then it's a HBP.  It's only a HBP/Dead Ball/Strike if he is hit while in the strike zone.

Or if the PU judged that he made an attempt to strike at the pitch. My guess, without being there, is that's what happened here.

Tim.

[johnnyg08]

I've had multiple DC come to me and say things along the lines of "he has to get out of the way" or "he didn't try to avoid it."  Well, when the pitch hits him on the BACK, and he made ANY attempt to move, tough luck.  Teach your pitcher to hit the zone!

Don't let any coaches try to tell you their version of the rules. Do your homework.

[Rich Ives]

Rich - it COULD be a HBP/Dead Ball/Ball too.  I've never called THAT one.  My general thought is if it is a ball, it's NOT where it should be and the batter really has to do something stupid to get a ball charged to him.  But it's definitely possible.

 

I've had multiple DC come to me and say things along the lines of "he has to get out of the way" or "he didn't try to avoid it."  Well, when the pitch hits him on the BACK, and he made ANY attempt to move, tough luck.  Teach your pitcher to hit the zone!

 

 

Yep - but you're just complicating things from the OP.

 

If it was ruled a checked swing ("he also clearly checked his swing.") - as it was, then saying the batter didn't try to  avoid is absolutely BS.

 

If that doesn't apply then it's only a HBP/DeadBall/Strike if the imp[act happened in the strike zone.  There ain't no "close enough".

[Jocko]

Just the facts....

The ball contacted the player... TIME!

The batter checked his swing.... Not a DB Strike

It's a pitch, so it's either a ball, a strike, or HBP

It wasn't in the zone, so it's a ball. It hit the batter, so it's dead. He didn't lean into it, so it's HBP.

Cut and dried.

If HC needs an explanation...

Steve, In my judgement he didn't allow it to hit him.

Simple enough?

"IN MY JUDGEMEMT" ends all arguments.

[umpire_scott]

So I've always kind of felt that there was a sort of imaginary line going straight up from the edges of the plate and if a player had leaned over that area, even if the pitch is too high or too low to be "in the zone", that the batter would not be awarded first base because the part of his body that got hit was actually over the plate.  This would be the case for a "dead ball ball".  I don't think I've ever called it, because I would have to be 100% certain to rule on that.  But is that a plausible argument?  Or is it simply was the pitch a ball or a strike?  If ball then it's HBP.

[Replacematt]

So I've always kind of felt that there was a sort of imaginary line going straight up from the edges of the plate and if a player had leaned over that area, even if the pitch is too high or too low to be "in the zone", that the batter would not be awarded first base because the part of his body that got hit was actually over the plate.  This would be the case for a "dead ball ball".  I don't think I've ever called it, because I would have to be 100% certain to rule on that.  But is that a plausible argument?  Or is it simply was the pitch a ball or a strike?  If ball then it's HBP.

 

No, that's not a plausible argument. Go with your second assessment--if the pitch was in the zone, it's a strike. If not, HBP.

[sdix00]

Article cited is coauthored by the LLWR UIC and the NFHS Umpire Liaison/ CA Instructional Chair.

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbjuly10/Hit_Batter_Procedure.htm

[Umpiresoftball]

I had to make this call i kind of screw it up the last part.... shame on me but oh well

 

Anyways  u10 batter swings but the ball also hits her hand. i rule it as a stirke and a dead ball they thought it was fair... it was in fair but the ball was dead when it hit her hands.

 

what i miss the call she couldn't countine on first base and had no subs. So i should of had to call her out. i had a 2-2- count on that afterwords.

[BigUmp56]

I don't know about what should have been done in a softball, but in baseball the outcome of a player not being able to continue is a league or tournament dependant rule. Many have a "start with nine, finish with nine." Some allow an out to be called when the injured player's spot comes up in the batting order. I've never seen it happen, but I wonder if a team ever intentionally hit a player at bat to try and draw a forfeit. I wouldn't put it passed some coaches I know to try something like this.

Tim.

[mstaylor]

If the player is unable to continue and there are no subs, use the last out to run for the injured player. If the ruleset allows for playing with eight then just count an out when that spot come up. To be honest, I have no clue on how softball handles this. I have an USSSA world series in town, I will see what I can find out.