CCA coverage with R1 and R3

[zm1283]

So most of the credit for this post goes to MidAmUmp for doing the dirty work here....

 

In the high school section a few weeks ago there was a discussion about 3-man rotations.  UMPTTS43 posted this: (Not calling him out by any means, it was the only relevant post I could find)

 

Per CCA in three man, R1R3 if U3 goes out from the middle U1 comes in and has all plays on the bases. If U1 goes out PU has touch of home byR3 at home and plays on R1 at 3rd. 

Since the change was implemented last year there have been three different approaches to the R1R3 rotation when one umpire goes out. 1 - PUstays home regardless who goes out, 2 - revert to 2 man implying PU has plays on R1 at 3rd, 3 - do as CCA says. 

At the 2012 national meeting, instructions were that there was no rotation, do as the manual says. When I contacted Hiler concerning the rotations as outlined in the manual, he said to follow the manual. That being said, there are many experienced NCAA umpires that do not know the rotation is in the manual. Bottom line, pregame.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Troy is right in that the CCA Manual does say to do this.

 

Some of us locally were talking about rotations when you have R1/R3 in 3-man.  We could not figure out the logic of having the PU rotate when U1 goes out from the line, but not rotate when U3 goes out from the middle and U1 has to come all the way across the infield to chase R1 to 3B.  After a couple of emails among various people, Hiler says that there is no rotation at all with R1/R3, so the PU stays home no matter who goes out.  The CCA Manual as it is written is incorrect.  The email was copied to Referee Magazine so they can update the CCA manual for next year. (I don't have the email to copy/paste, but I did see it)

 

Just thought you guys might find that interesting.

[UmpTTS43]

Nice. Now if they would communicate this nationally. Toms email from last year went the other way. Lets figure it out boys.

[zm1283]

Nice. Now if they would communicate this nationally. Toms email from last year went the other way. Lets figure it out boys.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

Yeah your post talking about this whole thing is what led to me bringing it up to several guys locally.  We started talking about it and no one knew for sure why you would rotate in one situation and not rotate in the other.  It sounds like it's going to be changed in the manual for next year.  

 

Starting last year with the new mechanics, we didn't rotate at all if we had R1/R3, even if someone went out.  

[Haid D' Salaami]

My 2013 CCa Does not show this.. It shows with R3 and r1 and U3 goes out, U1 comes in ...PU always, ALWAYS stays home

[UmpTTS43]

My 2013 CCa Does not show this.. It shows with R3 and r1 and U3 goes out, U1 comes in ...PU always, ALWAYS stays home

Your CCA also says that with R1R3 and U1 goes out PU has R1 into 3rd.

I think the original rational was that with a trouble ball to right/right center where U1 goes out there is a higher probability of a play on R1 at 3rd versus a trouble ball in left center. Don't know for sure

[KyleUmp]

I'm confused. The 2013 CCA manual says, correctly, that in a three man system with R1 & R3 the PU will stay home in both situations that are being discussed.

 

Page 149 - U3 goes out

Page 145 - U1 goes out

 

In both instances, the PU stays home. In the situation where U1 goes out the PU will have the tag of R3 coming home on a fly ball.

 

What am I missing?

[zm1283]

I'm confused. The 2013 CCA manual says, correctly, that in a three man system with R1 & R3 the PU will stay home in both situations that are being discussed.

 

Page 149 - U3 goes out

Page 145 - U1 goes out

 

In both instances, the PU stays home. In the situation where U1 goes out the PU will have the tag of R3 coming home on a fly ball.

 

What am I missing?

______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I don't have my manual with me, but in the situation where U1 goes out, it mentions something about the PU rotating to third base for plays on R1 there, and returning home if R1 advances there, which is just like the 2-man rotation.  Maybe someone can post the exact text.  If not, I can do it when I get home today.

[KyleUmp]

Sounds like you guys have old manuals. Two years ago (maybe three) the R1 & R3 with U1 going out in a 3 man was changed. The "new" mechanic for this situation is PU has any tag of R3 on a fly ball and U3 has any play on any base. The PU stays home. The PU would simply take the tag by moving back from the point of the plate and adjusting to line up the potential catch and R3. He does not rotate.

2013 CCA manual page 145 is a reference.

[zm1283]

Sounds like you guys have old manuals. Two years ago (maybe three) the R1 & R3 with U1 going out in a 3 man was changed. The "new" mechanic for this situation is PU has any tag of R3 on a fly ball and U3 has any play on any base. The PU stays home. The PU would simply take the tag by moving back from the point of the plate and adjusting to line up the potential catch and R3. He does not rotate.

2013 CCA manual page 145 is a reference.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a 2013 manual and I know the new mechanic.  I used it all of last year and we didn't rotate at all with R1/R3 no matter who went out.  

 

Here is the exact text from p. 145.  The title of the page says "Fly Ball Down the Right-Field Line: Catch", and U1 is shown going out on the ball.  

PU: Moves to a position to view R3's tag up at third base.  PU returns to home plate for any play on R3.  If the ball is not caught, PU also move(sp) into position for any plays at third base involving R1.

 

U1: Moves to the best position possible to view the fair/foul and catch/no catch. 

 

U3: Retreats and observes R1's potential tag up.  U3 moves into position for all plays on the bases.  If the ball is not caught, U3 has any plays at second base on R1 and any plays at any base on the batter-runner. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The part in red says that the PU goes to third base for plays on R1 if the ball is not caught.  I don't know what else that could be deciphered as besides a rotation.

 

This part makes no sense because in one sentence it says U3 has all plays on the bases, then in the next sentence it says that U3 only has plays at second base on R1 and anything involving the B/R.  It says nothing about the PU covering third.

 

This whole page is a complete clusterf*ck if you ask me.  

[Haid D' Salaami]

Kyle.. read pg 145 under Umpire responsibilities..

PU : Moves into a position to view R3's tag up at third base. PU returns to Home plate for any play on R3. If the ball is not caught, PU also moves into position for any plays at third base involing R1.

[KyleUmp]

I understand. The simplest way I can explain why this isn't a rotation (like we are accustom) is because U1 does not rotate home. The PU is responsible for R1 into third and a play at the plate. The PU cannot commit to 3rd and take a play like he would normally on a true rotation since he still has to get home.

When it happens, it's a cluster.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Kyle.. if there is a play on R3 at home PU will stay home and BU will take the plays on the bases. It's pretty easy.

[Jimurray]

I understand. The simplest way I can explain why this isn't a rotation (like we are accustom) is because U1 does not rotate home. The PU is responsible for R1 into third and a play at the plate. The PU cannot commit to 3rd and take a play like he would normally on a true rotation since he still has to get home.

When it happens, it's a cluster.

It's a cluster if the ball is caught and also falls for a base hit at the same time. Otherwise it seems pretty simple.

[KyleUmp]

Kyle.. if there is a play on R3 at home PU will stay home and BU will take the plays on the bases. It's pretty easy.

 

Again, I understand that. I am talking about a play at third on R1. That's the PU's responsibility but the PU also has a play on R1 at home should one develop. He's got no coverage at the plate by U1 as in a standard/normal/whatever you want to call it rotation.

[Haid D' Salaami]

just like in 2 man, once you have no play, you retreat back home for a possible play. What would you do in 2 man? If in 2 man you had R3 and R1 and had a basehit and a play on R1 at 3rd.. PU would move into a position at 3rd for a play, if a play would develop at home, the PU would move home.. pretty easy.

[KyleUmp]

just like in 2 man, once you have no play, you retreat back home for a possible play. What would you do in 2 man? If in 2 man you had R3 and R1 and had a basehit and a play on R1 at 3rd.. PU would move into a position at 3rd for a play, if a play would develop at home, the PU would move home.. pretty easy.

 

Why do you keep saying "pretty easy?"  I get it. We are agreeing and saying the same thing. I am giving my thoughts on how this differs from a straight up 3 man rotation (where U1 rotates home). We agree, Haid D'Salaami. We are saying the same thing.

[Haid D' Salaami]

i dont think so.. If U! goes out.. then it goes back to 2 man.. if U1 does not go out PU has all plays at home he will not rotate. The 3 rotations are No one on, R1, and R2- R1 tag up.

[KyleUmp]

I know that. We are saying the same thing.

Let's move on. :)

[zm1283]

I understand. The simplest way I can explain why this isn't a rotation (like we are accustom) is because U1 does not rotate home. The PU is responsible for R1 into third and a play at the plate. The PU cannot commit to 3rd and take a play like he would normally on a true rotation since he still has to get home.

When it happens, it's a cluster.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Of course U1 doesn't rotate home, he is going out on the ball to right field.  

 

I really don't think you're saying the same thing as the rest of us.  The PU is NOT responsible for U1 at third base at all when you have R1/R3.  The PU has tag ups at third with R3 no matter who goes out, and he has all plays at home plate.  If either BU goes out, the other BU has all plays on the bases.  That's it.  The PU doesn't rotate, he doesn't go to third, nothing.  

 

What if you have just R1?  If U1 goes out, the PU will still rotate to third base and has to retreat to home plate for a play there on R1 should one develop.  With R1/R3, the PU is anchored at home plate.

[zm1283]

Kyle.. if there is a play on R3 at home PU will stay home and BU will take the plays on the bases. It's pretty easy.

 

Again, I understand that. I am talking about a play at third on R1. That's the PU's responsibility but the PU also has a play on R1 at home should one develop. He's got no coverage at the plate by U1 as in a standard/normal/whatever you want to call it rotation.

 

 

just like in 2 man, once you have no play, you retreat back home for a possible play. What would you do in 2 man? If in 2 man you had R3 and R1 and had a basehit and a play on R1 at 3rd.. PU would move into a position at 3rd for a play, if a play would develop at home, the PU would move home.. pretty easy.

 

Why do you keep saying "pretty easy?"  I get it. We are agreeing and saying the same thing. I am giving my thoughts on how this differs from a straight up 3 man rotation (where U1 rotates home). We agree, Haid D'Salaami. We are saying the same thing.

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

The play on R1 at third is NOT the PU's responsibility.  That is what Salaami is trying to tell you.  The CCA manual is wrong, hence the reason for this thread in the first place.

 

It differs from a "straight up 3-man rotation" because it isn't a rotation at all.  No one rotates when an BU goes out with R1/R3.

[BalkHawk]

Sounds like you guys have old manuals. Two years ago (maybe three) the R1 & R3 with U1 going out in a 3 man was changed. The "new" mechanic for this situation is PU has any tag of R3 on a fly ball and U3 has any play on any base. The PU stays home. The PU would simply take the tag by moving back from the point of the plate and adjusting to line up the potential catch and R3. He does not rotate.

2013 CCA manual page 145 is a reference.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a 2013 manual and I know the new mechanic.  I used it all of last year and we didn't rotate at all with R1/R3 no matter who went out.  

 

Here is the exact text from p. 145.  The title of the page says "Fly Ball Down the Right-Field Line: Catch", and U1 is shown going out on the ball.  

> 

PU: Moves to a position to view R3's tag up at third base.  PU returns to home plate for any play on R3.  If the ball is not caught, PU also move(sp) into position for any plays at third base involving R1.

 

U1: Moves to the best position possible to view the fair/foul and catch/no catch. 

 

U3: Retreats and observes R1's potential tag up.  U3 moves into position for all plays on the bases.  If the ball is not caught, U3 has any plays at second base on R1 and any plays at any base on the batter-runner. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The part in red says that the PU goes to third base for plays on R1 if the ball is not caught.  I don't know what else that could be deciphered as besides a rotation.

 

This part makes no sense because in one sentence it says U3 has all plays on the bases, then in the next sentence it says that U3 only has plays at second base on R1 and anything involving the B/R.  It says nothing about the PU covering third.

 

This whole page is a complete cluster   if you ask me.  

 

 

I wan't confused til you said you were. Doesn't this read that when U1 goes out, U3 gets into position for all plays on the bases (in case the ball is caught)? If the ball drops, you have a B/R to look after, so PU rotates for plays on R1 at 3rd. If it is caught, U3 lets the ball take him to the play. There's only gonna be one play in the infield, barring an error.

Seems like PU is going to have to follow the ball too, not just blindly rotate. If it its a shallow trouble ball, the play just might be at  .

[BalkHawk]

i should have read the first post, first. I like the rotation when U1 goes out. If there is a play on R1 at 3rd that means R3 has long since jogged to . I like no rotation when U3 goes out; the left fielder is going to pick the ball up and throw it to the cutoff in deep SS. R1 is halfway between 1st and 2nd; he ain't getting to 3rd. 

 

[Haid D' Salaami]

There is a misprint... PU never rotates to 3rd with a R3 & R1.. never, no matter which umpire goes out.