Should poor mechanics be overlooked in the MLB

[Mr Umpire]

In response to another thread to prevent it from going to far off topic.

You can disagree with West and McClelland all you want. But, it should be noted, that they are both long time MLB umpires, which is more than you can say for anyone I have read on here. Not dissing the people on here AT ALL, but its easy to be at the bottom taking shots at the people on the top.

And, as I understand it, West and McClelland are generally considered better umpires than what worked say, 30 years ago. Not to say that Bellino is a poor umpire, again, hes at the top so he must be pretty dang good. I would certainly sit down in a room and listen to anything he had to say about mechanics and how to do something, and try to emulate it, as I would with ANY regular umpire at the MLB level. I also think that its not just because they have been in the league a long time that they get respect from coaches. Umpire schools teach a certain way because that they know that if they ingraine a certain behaviour into your brain, in times of stress, your likely to repeat it, instead of breaking down and making a mistake. Not because they expect everyone to be a robot. I've been an MLB season ticket holder long enough and watched enough guys at the top to know that there are a lot of different ways to arrive at the same conclusion, and how you point and shout out a call is not the real reason that you would get respect on a baseball field.

Just b/c we are not in the MLB does not make us any lower of an umpire. We just don't get paid as much as they do. And, to get paid that much and do lazy mechanics is ridiculous. Associations drop umpires for that same stuff b/c they want ALL of their umpires to do it correctly, including the ones at the top of their association. It is not someone at the "bottom taking shots at the people on the top". It is someone who cares enough about his avocation to want those considered "at the top" to do it correctly for their ENTIRE career. Honestly, I'll listen to Bellino before I listen to West based on what I have observed between the 2.

Being in MLB does not make an umpire "at the top". There are far better ones who didn't want that lifestyle calling other levels today and when West got into it. Especially now, since PBUC underpays the umpires for what they deal with. It has been said before, "Do not emulate what you see on TV" except for Bellino's mechanics. West has shown that before with how he handled Guillen this past year. It is for a show.

30 years ago is not today. There is no comparison since the umpires have to now be trained before even being considered to go through the ranks. And, umpires do not get put in the MLB before they are considered ready for it unless a mistake was made. Comparing 30 years ago to today is not good since today's umpires are trained far better than the ones of 30 years ago.

Part of why West gets away with what he does b/c he is the president of the WUA, the union which MLB umpires are part of. But, again, he shouldn't be doing lazy mechanics. I do not think "time in" should afford anyone to be lazy. West is only "at the top" of those who are currently going through the PBUC ranks b/c that is their association and he is where they aspire to be. He is NOT at the top of the umpiring ranks. Treat them better and change the lifestyle, then we may actually get to see the ones "at the top" of umpiring.

It's a big world and that isn't even 1% of all the umpires out there. I doubt we will ever see more than a handful in the MLB per generation which can be considered "at the top" of the umpire profession unless things change.

[UMP45]

Mr. Umpire I have had MLB umpires say at camps "don't do it like you see it on tv but how you are taught". They have earned the right to do it they way they do. Not saying right or wrong just it is what is.

[Umpire in Chief]

First remember we're hardly working mechanics so hustle is still important but takes a slightly different role. You're not busting in and taking a runner to second.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Some of the mechanics they use are outdated, modified due to injury or ability or a combination of the two. I wont say there is a apathy component as well.</div>

[detailshp]

In response to another thread to prevent it from going to far off topic.

You can disagree with West and McClelland all you want. But, it should be noted, that they are both long time MLB umpires, which is more than you can say for anyone I have read on here. Not dissing the people on here AT ALL, but its easy to be at the bottom taking shots at the people on the top.

And, as I understand it, West and McClelland are generally considered better umpires than what worked say, 30 years ago. Not to say that Bellino is a poor umpire, again, hes at the top so he must be pretty dang good. I would certainly sit down in a room and listen to anything he had to say about mechanics and how to do something, and try to emulate it, as I would with ANY regular umpire at the MLB level. I also think that its not just because they have been in the league a long time that they get respect from coaches. Umpire schools teach a certain way because that they know that if they ingraine a certain behaviour into your brain, in times of stress, your likely to repeat it, instead of breaking down and making a mistake. Not because they expect everyone to be a robot. I've been an MLB season ticket holder long enough and watched enough guys at the top to know that there are a lot of different ways to arrive at the same conclusion, and how you point and shout out a call is not the real reason that you would get respect on a baseball field.

Just b/c we are not in the MLB does not make us any lower of an umpire. We just don't get paid as much as they do. And, to get paid that much and do lazy mechanics is ridiculous. Associations drop umpires for that same stuff b/c they want ALL of their umpires to do it correctly, including the ones at the top of their association. It is not someone at the "bottom taking shots at the people on the top". It is someone who cares enough about his avocation to want those considered "at the top" to do it correctly for their ENTIRE career. Honestly, I'll listen to Bellino before I listen to West based on what I have observed between the 2.

Being in MLB does not make an umpire "at the top". There are far better ones who didn't want that lifestyle calling other levels today and when West got into it. Especially now, since PBUC underpays the umpires for what they deal with. It has been said before, "Do not emulate what you see on TV" except for Bellino's mechanics. West has shown that before with how he handled Guillen this past year. It is for a show.

30 years ago is not today. There is no comparison since the umpires have to now be trained before even being considered to go through the ranks. And, umpires do not get put in the MLB before they are considered ready for it unless a mistake was made. Comparing 30 years ago to today is not good since today's umpires are trained far better than the ones of 30 years ago.

Part of why West gets away with what he does b/c he is the president of the WUA, the union which MLB umpires are part of. But, again, he shouldn't be doing lazy mechanics. I do not think "time in" should afford anyone to be lazy. West is only "at the top" of those who are currently going through the PBUC ranks b/c that is their association and he is where they aspire to be. He is NOT at the top of the umpiring ranks. Treat them better and change the lifestyle, then we may actually get to see the ones "at the top" of umpiring.

It's a big world and that isn't even 1% of all the umpires out there. I doubt we will ever see more than a handful in the MLB per generation which can be considered "at the top" of the umpire profession unless things change.

Ok, I read all of this and see all your points, and sounds liike a lot of sour grapes towards guys who you don't think should belong "in the show."

Is that really necessary? I agree that Joe West may have a different mechanic set than a guy fresh out of Umpire school, I dont think anyone would defend him on that. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am ok with that, but wasnt there a strike that got a lot of good umpires "retired" because they made so little money "at the top" that the rate that PBUC pays guys now would have been a luxury? Wasn't he one of the guys who was around before the "lifestyle" was such a drag and umpires were paid peanuts and leftover cokes from the concession stands? Didnt he get re-hired? You really think that he's a waste even though he got re-hired after the strike?

Also, I get tired of hearing from guys who say, "do it like I say, and not how you see it." Where is the magical cut-off in any career arc where how you do it isnt as important as what the conclusion is? Its hypocracy to me, but I am just an idiot who likes to umpire. This fanatical devotion to a particular method of voicing a call, moving your arms, I don't know how you can say that has to happen for you to be the best umpire you can be. I say this because I watch the LL world series ( unpaid ) Babe Ruth WS ( paid) College WS and regional tourney games ( paid ) and MLB guys ( "the top" I guess- longtime White Sox season ticket holder ) and rarely do I see one PU do it exactly like another. I sure do hear a lot of guys in clinics, camps, and guys on various forums like this constantly harp about how you have to do it a certain way no matter what, so I go turn on the TV and what do I see? Not what I hear in the camps. Seems like an incongruity to me.

[Mr Umpire]

Ok, I read all of this and see all your points, and sounds liike a lot of sour grapes towards guys who you don't think should belong "in the show."

Is that really necessary? I agree that Joe West may have a different mechanic set than a guy fresh out of Umpire school, I dont think anyone would defend him on that. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am ok with that, but wasnt there a strike that got a lot of good umpires "retired" because they made so little money "at the top" that the rate that PBUC pays guys now would have been a luxury? Wasn't he one of the guys who was around before the "lifestyle" was such a drag and umpires were paid peanuts and leftover cokes from the concession stands? Didnt he get re-hired? You really think that he's a waste even though he got re-hired after the strike?

Also, I get tired of hearing from guys who say, "do it like I say, and not how you see it." Where is the magical cut-off in any career arc where how you do it isnt as important as what the conclusion is? Its hypocracy to me, but I am just an idiot who likes to umpire. This fanatical devotion to a particular method of voicing a call, moving your arms, I don't know how you can say that has to happen for you to be the best umpire you can be. I say this because I watch the LL world series ( unpaid ) Babe Ruth WS ( paid) College WS and regional tourney games ( paid ) and MLB guys ( "the top" I guess- longtime White Sox season ticket holder ) and rarely do I see one PU do it exactly like another. I sure do hear a lot of guys in clinics, camps, and guys on various forums like this constantly harp about how you have to do it a certain way no matter what, so I go turn on the TV and what do I see? Not what I hear in the camps. Seems like an incongruity to me.

If you read my post and this is all you got from it, you missed and are sadly mistaken. And, if you think any of my post was about money, wrong on that count as well.

They do not have to do it the same. That is not the point. And, to answer your question, I don't think there should be a "magical cut-off arc". Do it as prescribed and fewer confusions occur and fewer problems come about. That is my opinion and it is proven time and time again of what happens when followed vs. what happens when not followed.

PBUC umpires are not anywhere near a luxury pay. Not even close. They get from $1800 to about $3500 a month and drive from city to city to do DHs the next day. MLB umpires fly about every 3 or 4 days to call 1 game and on a rare occasion, a DH. Plus, there are 4 of them to share the load. There are only 2 below AA (below AAA if AA doesn't go to 3 man crews).

This isn't about money. It isn't about different styles. It is about the fact of should lazy mechanics be overlooked even if you are considered "at the top". If results were all that mattered, a lot more than West would be in the MLB. There are many who are better qualified. Again, the "lifestyle" turns them away.

[Mr Umpire]

First remember we're hardly working mechanics so hustle is still important but takes a slightly different role. You're not busting in and taking a runner to second.

And, that is a luxury I wish to have in every game.

[detailshp]

Mr. Umpire:

Apparently, I am sadly mistaken. Mistaken in the fact that you are flexible enough to look at other opinions and not shout them down. I wonder, then, how coaches feel after you do one of their games? Like they got run over by a train? You strike me as the kind of umpire that all the coaches I talk to HATE to have work their game. I would imagine you get lots of "respect" on the field, and carry lots of "credibility"

Seriously, I am happy for you.

What I do know, is that if you want to work with and umpire the best most skilled athletes in the game of baseball, you strive to work in the MLB. If their "lifestyle" and "perks" are the reason you dont want to work with the most skilled baseball players around, that is certainly your choice. I agree that not all umpires may strive to work with the best athletes.

Like I have stated on a couple of threads now, I am just an idiot who likes to umpire. It amazes me that I see guys like you on all of these forums, shouting down dissenting opinions, constantly carping about how the umpire world is unfair, and how MLB umpires stink, and that the best dont work with the best, and nobody should emulate anyone except what the rulebook and the schools teach you. Then I go to camps, watch games, umpire with veteran NCAA umpires, NAIA umpires, and all levels of FED and Youth leagues, and see that everyone does it differently, and lots of guys work "at the top" ( sorry borrowing your analogy of mine that you so conviently changed ) of each level of umpiring they desire, and coaches give them tons of respect and credibility.

I had mentioned earlier that the schools teach a certain way so that in times of stress, your more likely to repeat it. I am not going to tell you a lot about what I do for a living ( although my screen name may give you a hint ) but I have spent the last 15 years of my life molding young men ( and a few women) to do a certain task a certain way over and over and over again. However, about 8 years ago or so, I alo realized that maybe one of these kids might actually perform that task better and faster if he "personalized" it a little to his liking. Kinda like different batting stances, I figured in my head. I do a lot of comapring the game of baseball to my employees and their actions, and I get constant eye rolls, guess I have a certain way too. It works for me.

Seriously, though, I am glad it works for you, that ability to fall back to what the schools teach you and repeat it. But, in my years of watching and umpiring baseball, I just don't see the rigid adherence to a specific mechanic or process you so greatly espouse. So, my logical brain tells me that even though the schools are trying to create a better umpire, the game of baseball is still played by boys ( and girls now, isnt that fantastic?) and umpired by human beings. ( Even though I guess Gerry West isnt much of a human being to you ) Not robots. Sometimes I think that guys like you would be happier IF the game was umpired by robots. Al the umpires I know that have reached the top of the level they want to reach, do not do it the way the schools do it. Your almost fanatical devotion to the "same mechanics, no matter what" so that you dont make a mistake takes no account into the fact that many many men and women have done a fantastic job doing it the way that is the most comfortable to them, and they have all the respect and credibility they need. What the real goal here is to get the call right, right? Without becoming the center of attention in the game? Or do you not agree with that opinion?

[Mr Umpire]

Mr. Umpire:

Apparently, I am sadly mistaken. Mistaken in the fact that you are flexible enough to look at other opinions and not shout them down. I wonder, then, how coaches feel after you do one of their games? Like they got run over by a train? You strike me as the kind of umpire that all the coaches I talk to HATE to have work their game. I would imagine you get lots of "respect" on the field, and carry lots of "credibility"

Seriously, I am happy for you.

What I do know, is that if you want to work with and umpire the best most skilled athletes in the game of baseball, you strive to work in the MLB. If their "lifestyle" and "perks" are the reason you dont want to work with the most skilled baseball players around, that is certainly your choice. I agree that not all umpires may strive to work with the best athletes.

Like I have stated on a couple of threads now, I am just an idiot who likes to umpire. It amazes me that I see guys like you on all of these forums, shouting down dissenting opinions, constantly carping about how the umpire world is unfair, and how MLB umpires stink, and that the best dont work with the best, and nobody should emulate anyone except what the rulebook and the schools teach you. Then I go to camps, watch games, umpire with veteran NCAA umpires, NAIA umpires, and all levels of FED and Youth leagues, and see that everyone does it differently, and lots of guys work "at the top" ( sorry borrowing your analogy of mine that you so conviently changed ) of each level of umpiring they desire, and coaches give them tons of respect and credibility.

I had mentioned earlier that the schools teach a certain way so that in times of stress, your more likely to repeat it. I am not going to tell you a lot about what I do for a living ( although my screen name may give you a hint ) but I have spent the last 15 years of my life molding young men ( and a few women) to do a certain task a certain way over and over and over again. However, about 8 years ago or so, I alo realized that maybe one of these kids might actually perform that task better and faster if he "personalized" it a little to his liking. Kinda like different batting stances, I figured in my head. I do a lot of comapring the game of baseball to my employees and their actions, and I get constant eye rolls, guess I have a certain way too. It works for me.

Seriously, though, I am glad it works for you, that ability to fall back to what the schools teach you and repeat it. But, in my years of watching and umpiring baseball, I just don't see the rigid adherence to a specific mechanic or process you so greatly espouse. So, my logical brain tells me that even though the schools are trying to create a better umpire, the game of baseball is still played by boys ( and girls now, isnt that fantastic?) and umpired by human beings. ( Even though I guess Gerry West isnt much of a human being to you ) Not robots. Sometimes I think that guys like you would be happier IF the game was umpired by robots. Al the umpires I know that have reached the top of the level they want to reach, do not do it the way the schools do it. Your almost fanatical devotion to the "same mechanics, no matter what" so that you dont make a mistake takes no account into the fact that many many men and women have done a fantastic job doing it the way that is the most comfortable to them, and they have all the respect and credibility they need. What the real goal here is to get the call right, right? Without becoming the center of attention in the game? Or do you not agree with that opinion?

OK. You keep repeating how you miss everything I have said. And, you have not read enough of my posts to understand where I come from. I do not want robots. If you followed my posts when I reply to ejection threads, you would see that. In fact, I have not gone to umpire school. It is not a matter of removing style. In fact, I said that in my previous post. But, I have seen how the mechanics prescribed result in far better turnouts than when someone who chooses not to follow them. Style and mechanics is not the same thing. Not even close.

In fact, in another post of yours, you did fall back on what is taught to make sure everyone knew what your call was. Sounds like basic mechanics were used. It was your post and you proved that point by making it.

Forget it. You continue to misread my posts and turn them into a point which I never said nor meant. And, you want to turn it into a totally different subject which this one left that subject the moment you made 1 post. It is not about being robots nor having no style.

[mazzamouth]

There are only 2 below AA (below AAA if AA doesn't go to 3 man crews).

BTW AA has been 3 umpires for awhile now..LOL

[Pearberr]

I think I'm with Mr. Umpire on this one.

I was at a Dodgers-Cardinals game 2 weeks ago. Best seats I've ever had for an MLB game. Even with third base, about 10 rows deep.

Runner on first, fly ball down the third base line. R3 goes out, Jerry West comes in and takes the runner to third. Play happens at third and I look at West for the call who takes no less than three steps before he stops and makes his call.

I could care less how he signaled the runner safe but if he can't take a runner into third base anymore in a 4 man game than its time for him to leave.

MLB Umpires are good no doubt. But that does not mean they are always good. I was equally frustrated with Matt Kemp in that game for his laziness. But when ballplayers get old, and are no longer able to play, they leave. And if Mr. West has gotten to the same point, which it seems clear to me that he has, then its time for him to leave.

[mstaylor]

I'm missing the point of this whole thread. The umpiring schools teach everyone to do it the same way because most are just learning their job. They want the guys to learn muscle memory and for it to become second nature because in A ball and lower it is two man. The players are fast and the less they have to think about what they are doing, the more they can concentrate on the safes/outs, fair/fouls and ball/strikes.

By the time they are in the MLB it is completely ingrained, plus they are working four man. You can do things in four man, especially, working with same crew year after year, that you can do in other systems. When you work with the same guys all the time, you can develop your own mechanics if it works for your crew.

It has nothing to do with what we do or why. Few of us work with the same crew so we have to follow stadardized mechanics so we can pair with whoever and be successful.