This is a classic

[JaxRolo]

I'm being told on one thread to ALWAYS go for help when asked on the check swing, even if I'm sure, and no matter what position the BU is in; and to almost NEVER go for help on a pulled foot. So on which one am I enabling and which one am I not?

Scott,

Check swings are a completely different animal than everything else you might need to get help on. Follow both pieces of advice.

The only other thing I'll say is that I wouldn't base my decision on whether or not to go for help (on something like a pulled foot) on what I think one of the coaches may or may not have seen, nor whether or not I think they had a better view than I did.

Go for help only when you feel you may have missed something and are correctly asked by the manager to do so.

This is why I left the other thread. Scott just doesn't get it. He says he does but he don't.

He he wants to advance and get better he should listen. But that is up to him.

This is my first and only comment on this thread.

I am out of this one as well! :wave:

[umpire_scott]

Scott,

You need to focus more on umpiring and less on Physics.

You've got two very knowledgeable and experienced umpires graciously trying to teach you something and all you are doing is arguing with them in defense of an indefensible position. You're preventing yourself from understanding what they're telling you because you're more interested in defending your position that learning something.

At least that's how it comes across to me.

Besides, if you were to read Einstein's Special theory of relativity or understood the first thing about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle you would know that your physics position is as indefensible as you umpiring position.

They are right and you are wrong. Just sayin'.

Apologize for the interruption, we will now return our viewers to their regularly scheduled programming.

JM

I have a few questions. And don't take this as arguing, but attempting to understand. I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong. the fact that I've been married 12 years should be proof of that. But for me to admit that I'm wrong the other side has to come to me with a somewhat compelling argument. I don't feel this has been done. Maybe you can do this.

1. The fact that these umpires I'm arguing with are very experienced and knowledgeable only goes so far. Angel Hernandez umpires in MLB. I would say that qualifies as experienced and knowledgeable and most players, coaches, fans, and probably other umpires regard him as a complete buffoon. He's consistently rated as one of the worst umpires in MLB every year. I also worked a FP tournament with an umpire one year that had umpired the 6A championship the week before. He was obviously experienced and knowledgeable. He also had the worst strike zone I've ever seen. He did not call a singe strike above the belt the entire game. So just because you are experienced and knowledgeable does not mean you can't also be stubborn and irrational.

2. What exactly are they trying to teach me? All they have said that I can see is that they can see the inside of the foot and inside of the bag from the middle of the field.

3. Relativity and uncertainty are not part of my physics argument. It's more of a geometrical argument based on angles and lines of sight. So I'm not sure what you are meaning by this.

4. What exactly am I wrong about and they are right about. Please state what I've said that is wrong and what they said that was right. All I've said is that there are instances where when starting in "C" you can't get a good enough angle to see whether the foot was actually in contact with the bag. So the only way for me to be wrong is if this is not the case.

[umpire_scott]

I'm being told on one thread to ALWAYS go for help when asked on the check swing, even if I'm sure, and no matter what position the BU is in; and to almost NEVER go for help on a pulled foot. So on which one am I enabling and which one am I not?

Scott,

Check swings are a completely different animal than everything else you might need to get help on. Follow both pieces of advice.

The only other thing I'll say is that I wouldn't base my decision on whether or not to go for help (on something like a pulled foot) on what I think one of the coaches may or may not have seen, nor whether or not I think they had a better view than I did.

Go for help only when you feel you may have missed something and are correctly asked by the manager to do so.

This is why I left the other thread. Scott just doesn't get it. He says he does but he don't.

He he wants to advance and get better he should listen. But that is up to him.

This is my first and only comment on this thread.

I am out of this one as well!

When you aren't able to intellectually discuss something you just turn to "he doesn't get it". I get everything that's been posted, and I listen to everything that's been posted. Some people are just bitter towards umpires that think rather than blindly follow.

[RichMSN]

I'm being told on one thread to ALWAYS go for help when asked on the check swing, even if I'm sure, and no matter what position the BU is in; and to almost NEVER go for help on a pulled foot. So on which one am I enabling and which one am I not?

Scott,

Check swings are a completely different animal than everything else you might need to get help on. Follow both pieces of advice.

The only other thing I'll say is that I wouldn't base my decision on whether or not to go for help (on something like a pulled foot) on what I think one of the coaches may or may not have seen, nor whether or not I think they had a better view than I did.

Go for help only when you feel you may have missed something and are correctly asked by the manager to do so.

This is why I left the other thread. Scott just doesn't get it. He says he does but he don't.

He he wants to advance and get better he should listen. But that is up to him.

This is my first and only comment on this thread.

I am out of this one as well!

When you aren't able to intellectually discuss something you just turn to "he doesn't get it". I get everything that's been posted, and I listen to everything that's been posted. Some people are just bitter towards umpires that think rather than blindly follow.

You go right on thinking. In the meantime, think about this sentence, "When it's you against the world, back the world."

I'm done, too.

[Jocko]

I can tell you what I would think of you.

Scott, I, like most umpires, don't give a tinker's dam what coaches think. Not a good argument

[umpire_scott]

I can tell you what I would think of you.

Scott, I, like most umpires, don't give a tinker's dam what coaches think. Not a good argument

I do when they are right.

[Replacematt]

I do when they are right.

Pretty hard, since you have no clue what right is.

[Jocko]

:banghead: :banghead:

Done :wave: :wave:

[zm1283]

Scott,

You make this stuff waaaaay too difficult. Just freaking umpire. If you think his foot was still on the base, get the out and sell it if you need to. If the head coach wants you to get help and you're not confident in your call, get help. You shouldn't have to do so very often though. I'm thinking once a season maybe.

You worry entirely too much about what people think of you when you umpire.

I don't know what levels you work, but some of this stuff you're talking about RARELY comes up in games I am a part of.

[umpire_scott]

Scott,

You make this stuff waaaaay too difficult. Just freaking umpire. If you think his foot was still on the base, get the out and sell it if you need to. If the head coach wants you to get help and you're not confident in your call, get help. You shouldn't have to do so very often though. I'm thinking once a season maybe.

You worry entirely too much about what people think of you when you umpire.

I don't know what levels you work, but some of this stuff you're talking about RARELY comes up in games I am a part of.

I had the pulled foot come up twice in the same game. Both times I called the out. The first time the first base coach somewhat politely asked if I could go for help. I told him that I saw it clearly but would ask my partner anyway. My partner confirmed my call. The second one he did not ask and wasn't polite so I did not ask my partner. I asked my partner between inning and he told me the foot never got back to the bag.

My experience has been that pulled foots + foots not being in contact with the bag + swipe tags (all of which I would appeal to my PU for help) occur for more often than once a season.

[umpire_scott]

I do when they are right.

Pretty hard, since you have no clue what right is.

Nice contribution.

[umpire_scott]

I can tell you what I would think of you.

Scott, I, like most umpires, don't give a tinker's dam what coaches think. Not a good argument

A lot of ejections and messes can be avoided by umpires caring what coaches think. The attitude of not giving a tinkers dam what coaches think can easily impact how you deal with those coaches. I don't pretend that just because I'm an umpire I have better eyes than a coach. I don't think that just because I'm an umpire I have better judgment than a coach. I think this does help me in usually avoiding SH*#storms on the field.

[RichMSN]

A lot of ejections and messes can be avoided by umpires caring what coaches think. The attitude of not giving a tinkers dam what coaches think can easily impact how you deal with those coaches. I don't pretend that just because I'm an umpire I have better eyes than a coach. I don't think that just because I'm an umpire I have better judgment than a coach. I think this does help me in usually avoiding SH*#storms on the field.

I know that I'm the only one on the field who doesn't give a fig who wins the game.

I know that, through repetition, that I probably do have better judgment on whackers and most plays than any coach I've dealt with.

I also know where to go to get in position to have the best possible look at a call.

So, do I *not* care what coaches think? Of course -- I want to be known as someone who's fair, who hustles, and who does a good job for the game. I don't care that a coach thinks I'm wrong on some isolated call or set of calls, though.

[umpire_scott]

A lot of ejections and messes can be avoided by umpires caring what coaches think. The attitude of not giving a tinkers dam what coaches think can easily impact how you deal with those coaches. I don't pretend that just because I'm an umpire I have better eyes than a coach. I don't think that just because I'm an umpire I have better judgment than a coach. I think this does help me in usually avoiding SH*#storms on the field.

I know that I'm the only one on the field who doesn't give a fig who wins the game.

I know that, through repetition, that I probably do have better judgment on whackers and most plays than any coach I've dealt with.

I also know where to go to get in position to have the best possible look at a call.

So, do I *not* care what coaches think? Of course -- I want to be known as someone who's fair, who hustles, and who does a good job for the game. I don't care that a coach thinks I'm wrong on some isolated call or set of calls, though.

I don't care if a coach "thinks" I'm wrong either. I care when a coach "knows" I'm wrong. So if there is a play where I make a call and the coach has a better angle/view and asks for my partners help I'm going to get it. I know often the coaches argue calls that they thought they saw. But every once in a while they really did. So I'm not going to risk my credibility by telling a coach that might have seen the play that I saw something clearly and no I won't get a second look from my partner.

[mstaylor]

Scott:

What Rich said early in the thread was that coaches, even the one right on top of it, usually aren't looking at the play as it happens. They usually watch either the catch then the foot or the foot then look for the ball. Also they tend to want the play to happen a certain way so anything close they tend to see in their favor. Many coaches "know" we made a mistake, when actually they really just think we made a mistake. Do we make mistakes, sure but if we strive to get the correct angle we will have a much better track record than coaches will. If you don't believe me, sit in the crowd of a game where you have no interest in the outcome and gauge the calls to the comments ratio and see who is more likely correct.

When we say we don't care what the coach thinks, we mean we don't make calls to make them happy, nor should modify our mechanics to make them happy. If you search my past posts, you will see that I have consistently said not to get together to make a coach happy. You said yourself that you were confident of your call but went to your partner anyway because the coach asked. You ask because you think your partner has information. If you know your partner has responsibilities at third or home, you can not ask, he isn't looking. Why drag him under the bus for no reason.

You say you want reasons for our stances, there you go. You can't ask a guy to help you when you know he is looking elsewhere. With a R1 only then he has to look at second for interference but he may have a shot at helping, maybe not. If you have no runners, get the call yourself and never ask him.

Swipes are a different story but even then many times you are on your own. Check swings are also different because you are both looking at it and the require you to ask.

So a pulled foot is a mechanic, check swings, a rule. See the difference?

[UmpireSam]

Its a baseball vs softball thing again softball bases are 60 feet apart or less

Baseball is is another 10 yards 90 feet

In softball, the plate umpire always looks for pulled foot for a throw at first with runners starting at 1st or more

He also has dive backs to 1st while BU has almost all dive backs to third.

On an appealed pulled foot I have had my BU Point at me The Plate Ump and call out

"Do you have a pulled foot Blue ?" from 50 feet away.

Its now my call but All I have is yes or no !

I do not know about Senior Baseball Umpires and how you get assigned games but down here in Florida the Job Market is still pretty tight

This weekend we have NSA Fast Pitch

The format for this event will be three seed games into a single elimination round. The cost of this 2 day event is $365.

That is $325.00 that the coach you ignore, may have just paid.

If they loose 4 in a row, they just paid close to $100 dollars a game plus food hotel and travel cost.

They better not have lost one of those games because you will not give up a legit appeal !!

We never forget that these coaches decide where their teams may play, and if you don't give excellent costumer service they may go somewhere else next tournament.

Big deal you say,

Ok, just wait till they pull their 8's 10u 12u 14U 16u and 18U team from your organization and go someplace else.

See how your UIC feels about loosing 2 grand cause you don't give appeals.

You will find out just who pays you. Its the Coaches !

[Jocko]

Its a baseball vs softball thing again softball bases are 60 feet apart or less

Baseball is is another 10 yards 90 feet

In softball, the plate umpire always looks for pulled foot at first with runners at 1st or more

He also has dive backs to 1st while BU has almost all dive backs to third.

On an appealed pulled foot I have had my BU Point at me The Plate Ump and call out

"Do you have a pulled foot Blue ?" from 50 feet away.

Its now my call

All I have is yes or no !

I do not know about Senior Baseball Umpires and how you get assigned games but down here in Florida the Job Market is still pretty tight

This weekend we have NSA Fast Pitch

The format for this event will be three seed games into a single elimination round. The cost of this 2 day event is $365.

That is $325.00 that the coach you ignore, may have just paid.

We never forget that these coaches decide where their teams may play and if you don't give excellent costumer service they may go somewhere else next tournament.

Big deal you say, ok wait till they pull their 8's 10u 12u 14U 16u and 18U team

See how your UIC feels about loosing 2 grand cause you don't give appeals.

You will find out just who pays you. Its the Coaches !

I am most amused by this. If you say the coaches pay you, that means you work for them. If you work for them, you are subordinate to them.

Notice I said "YOU" not "I" or "WE"

I grant appeals on a play by play basis. If I am 100%, fuhgedabowtit

[UmpireSam]

BTW we have Umpires down here that get 20 slow pitch and 12 fast pitch games A WEEK !

[UmpireSam]

No silly

It means I know where the money comes from.

If enough Coaches are unhappy then our Director is Unhappy.

Our Director does work for the Coaches they are the ones who pay the fees

And he hires my UIC

who pays me.

I chuckle if you work tournaments, where does the money come from Magic Pixies ?,

We are Professional Umpires we get paid but only a fool would forget where the money comes from

[Jocko]

I don't do semantics or politics. I make calls. If I feel appeal is warranted, sure. If not, nope. I get paid to make judgement calls. My reputation precedes me on the field. Coaches see me at the park and ask what field I'm on and say they hope it's theirs. I don't try to placate them, I just do my job.

[UmpireSam]

You cannot appeal judgement calls

You cannot appeal balls and strikes

If you wish an appeal go to the Umpire who made the call to ask for help but give him the piece of the puzzel you think he is missing.

[Jocko]

You cannot appeal judgement calls

You cannot appeal balls and strikes

If you wish an appeal go to the Umpire who made the call to ask for help but give him the piece of the puzzel you think he is missing.

????? Could that be more random ?????

Whatever. I'm out.

[UmpireSam]

This is from the ISF National Director in Plant City Florida

Governing Body for International Softball and Olympic Softball

.If you Umpire at a higher level than him you must have just worked the MLB All-Star Game

Point to the PU and get the call right the first time, if possible. No need to "sell out" and run up the line with your head turned!!!

You can "gravitate" toward 3rd (if the situation warrants it), but still keep your eyes on the play at first. They are not going to throw the ball from first to third before you can get in a reasonable position to make the call @ 3rd.

I teach our umpires stay with priorities!

Nothing more aggravating that a PU telling a FU that, for instance, "I didn't see the play, I was watching the player touch home plate". Who cares about the runner touching home plate? If they were happening simultaneously (play @ 1st and runner touching home plate), the runner at home was OBVIOUSLY safe, and the play at first takes precedence.

By not going to partner immediately, you have to make the "out" call and wait to see if they appeal it. What if it was the 3rd out? The first baseman hears "out", and rolls the ball to the mound. Then they ask for appeal, while runners have been running, and possibly leaving the field toward the dugout.

Can be messy. If you ask for help first, however, then you always have the out by the fact that the runners and fielders should have never stopped playing until they heard the "out" call (if it were the 3rd out).

Too many reasons to "appeal" immediately.

[umpire_scott]

Scott:

What Rich said early in the thread was that coaches, even the one right on top of it, usually aren't looking at the play as it happens. They usually watch either the catch then the foot or the foot then look for the ball. Also they tend to want the play to happen a certain way so anything close they tend to see in their favor. Many coaches "know" we made a mistake, when actually they really just think we made a mistake. Do we make mistakes, sure but if we strive to get the correct angle we will have a much better track record than coaches will. If you don't believe me, sit in the crowd of a game where you have no interest in the outcome and gauge the calls to the comments ratio and see who is more likely correct.

When we say we don't care what the coach thinks, we mean we don't make calls to make them happy, nor should modify our mechanics to make them happy. If you search my past posts, you will see that I have consistently said not to get together to make a coach happy. You said yourself that you were confident of your call but went to your partner anyway because the coach asked. You ask because you think your partner has information. If you know your partner has responsibilities at third or home, you can not ask, he isn't looking. Why drag him under the bus for no reason.

You say you want reasons for our stances, there you go. You can't ask a guy to help you when you know he is looking elsewhere. With a R1 only then he has to look at second for interference but he may have a shot at helping, maybe not. If you have no runners, get the call yourself and never ask him.

Swipes are a different story but even then many times you are on your own. Check swings are also different because you are both looking at it and the require you to ask.

So a pulled foot is a mechanic, check swings, a rule. See the difference?

Michael,

Thank you. Yes that does make sense. It is becoming more and more obvious to me that I'm a softball umpire that is umpiring baseball. I did not realize that there were so many differences in the mechanics. As Sam said appeals to PU on a pulled foot happen ALL THE TIME in softball. I think the proximity of the bases does have something to do with that. But I do a lot of 12U and under games where the bases are 65 or 70 feet apart so it's closer to softball size then baseball size anyway.

I will say that each umpire has his own demeanor and personality that plays into how their field is run. Although many on here have given good reasons as to why not to go to your partner for an appeal, I still think there are also good reasons to do so. I think there are two sides to many situations. I've seen quite a few major blowups and ejections happen on fields that came after an umpire refused to ask his partner for help. So while I will consider the situation and work on doing is less frequently while umpiring baseball, I can't say that I'll ever get it down to 3 times every 25 years, or even close to that.

[UmpireSam]

Scott

It is easy to see which umpires are working and which are not.

This may be another baseball vs softball thing

And even then a fast pitch vs slow pitch thing

First basemen in baseball come off the bag way fast not wanting to get spiked.

Spikes are Illegal in slow pitch.

And we have the safety bag at first

If I am in the A or B slot and I have a good look at the play at first and the coach asks for the appeal

I say coach I had a pretty good look and I thought the foot was good.

If he still insists then give up the appeal.

C slot pulled foot appeal at first Coach you got it every time.

Some of these Umpires should come down to Florida and see if Don Stratton will hire them for ISA softball.

But make sure you tell Don that you have only given up 3 appeals in 25 years

They can then go see Disney and have a quick trip home....