Over-Zealous Courtesey Runners

[Umpire in Chief]

Yesterday 2nd game of DH in 95+ degree heat and near 100% humidity. NABA (adult league) No outs R1, R2 I'm on the bases. Ball hit to F4 who bobbles the ball then attempts to put out R2 @ third with a very late throw. R2 went in standing and actually rounded 3rd and had to dive back but dove short and got tagged out on his second effort. I call the out.

R2 and 3rd base coach and the entire offensive dugout are bitching.

R1 rounded 2nd pretty far. F5 throws to second to try for him but the runner sprints to third rather than heading back.

As the ball is being thrown to 2nd courtesey runners for both R1 & BR apparently start running onto the field. I have my back turned to the CRs running onto the field at this point watching the ball back to F6.

F6 throws to F5 to get the runner but the throw is bad.

As I turn around the area around 3rd base in a fuster cluck of offensive players. R2 who I called out is still in the area (sort of in the 3rd base coaches box) bitching, The 3rd base coach is in the area, R1 is in the area heading home now, and I've got 2 CRs on the field in fair territory. Talk about turning around and having a WTF moment .

F5 fields the ball and throws home where he is safe and the BR comes to 3rd.

In unison my partner and I call time. We get together and talk it out.

Coaches from both teams try to encroach into our conversation. My partner is a fine umpire, but not as strong in specific rules knowledge he keeps focusing on "they had too many players on the field."

I told him to the best of my knowledge MLB doesn't address having too many players on the field and it definately doesn't address courtesey runners.

He wanted to call somebody out. I told him the only we I thought we can get an out is if there was interference. I told him I didn't have any INT the legal base runners were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the CRs were in limbo in fair teritory just inside the 3rd base line but not interferring w/ the play.

We literally talked for over a minute think ing about what to do.

Based on the concept of "screw the team that screwed up" I came up with:

1 - The out on R2 stands, that was easy.

2 - Bring R1 back to 3rd

3 - BR to 2nd

Neither team objected and left satisfied. Not that they asked but my justification would have been that when the CRs entered the field that effectively killed the play and no runners could advance.

Between innings I told the 3rd base caoch I appreciated him wanting to hustle his CRs out, but make sure he has time first.

In hind sight I sort of think I should have placed R1 @ 2nd and the BR at first, but I'm not sure when the CRs entered the field. I noticed them after R1 rounded third, so they were most likely in fair territory before R1 aquired 3rd. But it was too hot for thinking about it too much more.

[BrianC14]

Yesterday 2nd game of DH in 95+ degree heat and near 100% humidity. NABA (adult league) No outs R1, R2 I'm on the bases. Ball hit to F4 who bobbles the ball then attempts to put out R2 @ third with a very late throw. R2 went in standing and actually rounded 3rd and had to dive back but dove short and got tagged out on his second effort. I call the out.

R2 and 3rd base coach and the entire offensive dugout are bitching.

R1 rounded 2nd pretty far. F5 throws to second to try for him but the runner sprints to third rather than heading back.

As the ball is being thrown to 2nd courtesey runners for both R1 & BR apparently start running onto the field. I have my back turned to the CRs running onto the field at this point watching the ball back to F6.

F6 throws to F5 to get the runner but the throw is bad.

As I turn around the area around 3rd base in a fuster cluck of offensive players. R2 who I called out is still in the area (sort of in the 3rd base coaches box) bitching, The 3rd base coach is in the area, R1 is in the area heading home now, and I've got 2 CRs on the field in fair territory. Talk about turning around and having a WTF moment .

F5 fields the ball and throws home where he is safe and the BR comes to 3rd.

In unison my partner and I call time. We get together and talk it out.

Coaches from both teams try to encroach into our conversation. My partner is a fine umpire, but not as strong in specific rules knowledge he keeps focusing on "they had too many players on the field."

I told him to the best of my knowledge MLB doesn't address having too many players on the field and it definately doesn't address courtesey runners.

He wanted to call somebody out. I told him the only we I thought we can get an out is if there was interference. I told him I didn't have any INT the legal base runners were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the CRs were in limbo in fair teritory just inside the 3rd base line but not interferring w/ the play.

We literally talked for over a minute think ing about what to do.

Based on the concept of "screw the team that screwed up" I came up with:

1 - The out on R2 stands, that was easy.

2 - Bring R1 back to 3rd

3 - BR to 2nd

Neither team objected and left satisfied. Not that they asked but my justification would have been that when the CRs entered the field that effectively killed the play and no runners could advance.

Between innings I told the 3rd base caoch I appreciated him wanting to hustle his CRs out, but make sure he has time first.

In hind sight I sort of think I should have placed R1 @ 2nd and the BR at first, but I'm not sure when the CRs entered the field. I noticed them after R1 rounded third, so they were most likely in fair territory before R1 aquired 3rd. But it was too hot for thinking about it too much more.

Unless the CRs caused the defense to be confused, I woudln't have taken R1's run off the board. Depending on when the play went relaxed, the B/R could have been left right there at 3B or if there was some confusion on the part of the defense, then put him back to 2B.

I'm trying to imagine how R1 can possibly score from first base on an infield hit, though.... that's got to be some seriously bad defensive work. It seems to me that the offense isn't the only side to screw up.

[semper_fi_72]

Now that is what I call a cluster

No interference or anything else caused by the CRs being in vicinity of 3B Coaching box, I think I would have let it have played out as it did.

Just a bunch of Adult Players who don't know any better.

I have seen BRs hit routine ground balls that should be sure outs wind up with them scoring.

Sometimes they just play worse than a T-Ball Team. :fuel:

[Mike Prince]

So for those who would let it play out, you don't see an issue with the players in fair ground with the play still going on? I think I would have called time as soon as I saw them out there and returned the runners to the base last occupied.

Even though there was not direct or observable intrerference caused by the runners, it seems like it would confuse the hell out of the defense.

[Umpire in Chief]

It was a jacked up situation from the word go. I was in the C and started making my way toward the B side of the working area anticipating a 4-6-3 DP, but then genius F4 not only bobbles but still trys for R2. R1 might have been a close play after the bobble, but just get 1, go to first people. The only thing I can think happened was as soon as the ball was hit on the ground everybody starts yelling 3 and he got that locked in his mind. It would have been a tough play even if fielded cleanly. Then the second defensive blunder was F6 sailing the ball back to third to the fense. It was like having 8-10 y/o kids. There was nothing routine happening.

[Umpire in Chief]

Even though there was not direct or observable intrerference caused by the runners, it seems like it would confuse the hell out of the defense.

I don't know how I would have been able to tell their confusion because of the CRs on the field from their confusion in lack of playing ability. The defense kept playing and didn't pay any attention to the CRs in terms of making a play. It was definately a CF.

[noumpere]

So for those who would let it play out, you don't see an issue with the players in fair ground with the play still going on?

It's either interference, and somebody is out, or it's not interference, and the play stands.

Your solomon-like attempt to split the baby doesn't seem to fly here.

[BrianC14]

So for those who would let it play out, you don't see an issue with the players in fair ground with the play still going on? I think I would have called time as soon as I saw them out there and returned the runners to the base last occupied.

Even though there was not direct or observable intrerference caused by the runners, it seems like it would confuse the hell out of the defense.

There's no way in hell you should be calling time when a play is still in progress. :crazy:

[Mr Umpire]

My ruling for this depends on the situation.

Good game? Need those runs to help end the game faster? Need the out to end the game faster? It is Men's ball after all.

I initially thought INT for gathering around a base to confuse the defense. But, I didn't read any confusion in the OP. Just bad play. I would let the play stand. The defense played as if the runners weren't there and had no issues with who they were making a play on.

HTBT to know what my take on the defense's part would have been to me. But, as described, play on. Whatever happens, happens.

[Mike Prince]

Ok points taken in response to my previous post which was more of a question rather than the poor "here is what I would do" way that I worded it. It sounds like Warren did the best he could with his partner.

My issue would be that the offense has players from the dugout entering fair territory while a play is still in progress. I always thought (and OBR 3.03 confirms) play must be completed before a substitution can be made. But if in the umpire's judgement no interference happened as a result I guess it doesn't matter.

Edited June 21, 2010 by bikerider

[Umpire in Chief]

Maybe we should have let everything stand as it played out. Offense effed up so did the defense. There wasn't a real advantage created by the play. Maybe my partner adn I got wrapped up in the excitement too. The Defense was yelling, confusion was everywhere, my partner wanted to get outs and I just knew I had no outs to get but knew this had gotten screwed up beyond just playing ability. At the time I felt they needed to be punished for their screw up.

[UmpJM]

Warren,

Did you consider applying 7.09(d), or did you decide it just didn't apply to the sitch?

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(d) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates;

JM

[Mr Umpire]

Warren,

Did you consider applying 7.09(d), or did you decide it just didn't apply to the sitch?

JM

That is the rule I thought initially but it didn't sound like the defense showed any confusion. It sounds to me that the defense just screwed up.