Proof They'll Never Learn

[DirtyDawg]

I had a slow-pitch game this weekend in which the gentlman at bat decides he can't control his bat and after his swing decides to let it go in which the bat then procedes to come back and nail me right in the shints and then clips the catcher. I calmly let the play finish, call time, and inform the team in which the offender plays, "Alright, this is your warning for a thrown bat. They next offender will be ejected from the game (and quite possibly the rest of the tournament, though I doubt it since it was for charity). The team's captain comes unglued (in a controlled manner I guess you can say). He asks me, isn't that supposed to be just an out, Blue? I look at him and inform him there is no actual rule written in the rule book about thrown bats, and let him know that I've got myself and a catcher to protect here at the plate (slow-pitch = no gear). He understands, then "Game On."

[Armgdnman]

I have had similar circumstances in LL where I waited for the play to finish and then explained to the OC that the batter has been given a warning for a thrown bat. That same batter in his next at-bat does the same exact thing only worse. This time I waited for the play to finish, call time and call the batter out. Is this ruling correct? Or is the player ejected? Thanks for the help.

[Rich Ives]

I have had similar circumstances in LL where I waited for the play to finish and then explained to the OC that the batter has been given a warning for a thrown bat. That same batter in his next at-bat does the same exact thing only worse. This time I waited for the play to finish, call time and call the batter out. Is this ruling correct? Or is the player ejected? Thanks for the help.

Warn - eject. There is no rule that allows an "out" call in LL.

[catoblue]

+1

Rich is correct.

Armgdnman...

"out for throwing the bat" is another one of those playground rules that many believe apply to organized baseball, when in fact it doesn't. Just like "one base on an overthrow", "hands are part of the bat", "you gotta turn to your right when you overrun first", "it's not HBP if it bounces before hitting the batter", "a foul tip is foul", etc.

I can't count the number of times I've seen some of the "daddy-umps" we get around here call a kid out on a bat that got away. When I was coaching, I'd ask for time and mention just what Rich said, after that, I'd just leave it alone so I don't get tossed and hope that by bringing it to their attention, maybe they might try to get their hands on a rule book and maybe, just maybe, even read it.

You kicked this one, but had enough common sense to wonder about it and ask - that's a good thing. I'd be willing to bet you never get this one wrong again B)

[Mike Prince]

Our local association rules (Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth) mandate a warning to both dugouts on the first thrown bat then an out for any subsequent wild bats from either team. Usually after the warning there is not an issue for the remainer of the game.

[DirtyDawg]

The warning/out routine is usually at a local level, so if your local organization calls for it, then you're right. In my case, the only rules we had were the ASA rules. In ADULT slow-pitch, I'm not going to risk mine or my catcher's health and only get an out. If it becomes a problem, I am taking care of the problem.

[Rich Ives]

The problem with local rules is that when you get to post season play they will NOT apply and someone will go nuts when it doesn't get called.

OR

Someone will call it and go nuts when the protest gets upheld.

Better to stick with the book.

[DirtyDawg]

I agree.....but when you have the local "ground rules" that pick up what the book leaves out, there's really not much else you can do. You have to call them because there is doubtfully any rule in the book to supersede the local rule.

[catoblue]

We've got a screwball local rule that I was made aware of last night - CBO, on a thrown bat, 1st offense is a warning, second offense, the player is removed from the lineup (can't bat the rest of the game) but may play defense, no out will be recorded when that player's spot in the lineup comes up. : :nod:

[Armgdnman]

+1

Rich is correct.

Armgdnman...

"out for throwing the bat" is another one of those playground rules that many believe apply to organized baseball, when in fact it doesn't. Just like "one base on an overthrow", "hands are part of the bat", "you gotta turn to your right when you overrun first", "it's not HBP if it bounces before hitting the batter", "a foul tip is foul", etc.

I can't count the number of times I've seen some of the "daddy-umps" we get around here call a kid out on a bat that got away. When I was coaching, I'd ask for time and mention just what Rich said, after that, I'd just leave it alone so I don't get tossed and hope that by bringing it to their attention, maybe they might try to get their hands on a rule book and maybe, just maybe, even read it.

You kicked this one, but had enough common sense to wonder about it and ask - that's a good thing. I'd be willing to bet you never get this one wrong again

After checking with the League Commish, I was right. The rules for the local league are 1st offense - warning 2nd offense - out 3rd offense - ejection.

So no "Daddy-umpiring" here. When I ask a question on here I dont expect to get flamed. Common sense would dictate that there would be a thread somewhere in the forum for your rant.

As for the rest of your (cough) "examples" I dont think I need to take another swing at that horse.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Armgdnman

[mstaylor]

After checking with the League Commish, I was right. The rules for the local league are 1st offense - warning 2nd offense - out 3rd offense - ejection.

So no "Daddy-umpiring" here. When I ask a question on here I dont expect to get flamed. Common sense would dictate that there would be a thread somewhere in the forum for your rant.

As for the rest of your (cough) "examples" I dont think I need to take another swing at that horse.

I'm not sure what you call flaming. You asked if it was the correct ruling and it was answered that for LL it was not. You have since found out there is a local rule to the contrary. Now this is a discussion that comes up many times a year all over the internet and many umpires just make crap up. Nobody accused you of anything, we simply explained what a properly run LL should do. The general concensus about most local rules are they are rules written by fools. They make stuff up to fit one set of things and screws up six others. If your league is an independant league unassociated with any national organization then there is nothing wrong with local rules. If it affiliates with LL,Pony, Cal Repkin or other similar organizations then they should do what the national rules say do.

This not a slam in any respect, simply an explanation of the way many well intentioned parents screw up youth sports.

[DirtyDawg]

It's a ploy to try to make things safer. Before long, we'll have little Johnny wrapped up in so much bubble wrap before he starts the game, you'll literally have to change the coach no touchy rule just in order to get him rolled on to first base!

[Dragon29]

The problem with local rules is that when you get to post season play they will NOT apply and someone will go nuts when it doesn't get called.

OR

Someone will call it and go nuts when the protest gets upheld.

Better to stick with the book.

Absolutely - I see this every year when doing LL post-season games.

BTW: I compltely agree w/mstaylor's response to Armgdnman comment re:being flamed. There was no flaming on this one - you want see flaming? There's another site (that will remain nameless) you could go to and see all you want. (A lot of good information, but you have to wear an asbestos suit to get through sometimes)

[Armgdnman]

Just struck me the wrong way I guess.

[catoblue]

Just struck me the wrong way I guess.

Sorry you took it in a spirit other than intended - I make every effort possible to NOT flame people, since I find it counter-productive in any meaningful discussion. MST's post above is accurate - I was talking about what the LL rule is, and venting about some of the crap that I see around here with the daddy umps that call a lot of the games in our area - NOT calling you a daddy-ump.

The best saying on local rules is "local rules are made by fools". and I couldn't agree more. We've got some screwed up ones that we have to play by here too. How about no IFF in Majors baseball?! :

Then there is the new one they came up with this year on the wild bats (see my post above)

It aggravates me to no end that the numbskulls on some of these BoD's can't just lit the kids play by the rules of the sanctioning body! If they want to make up their own rules, why bother going through the hassle of obtaining a charter?!

[Armgdnman]

Sorry you took it in a spirit other than intended - I make every effort possible to NOT flame people, since I find it counter-productive in any meaningful discussion. MST's post above is accurate - I was talking about what the LL rule is, and venting about some of the crap that I see around here with the daddy umps that call a lot of the games in our area - NOT calling you a daddy-ump.

The best saying on local rules is "local rules are made by fools". and I couldn't agree more. We've got some screwed up ones that we have to play by here too. How about no IFF in Majors baseball?! :

Then there is the new one they came up with this year on the wild bats (see my post above)

It aggravates me to no end that the numbskulls on some of these BoD's can't just lit the kids play by the rules of the sanctioning body! If they want to make up their own rules, why bother going through the hassle of obtaining a charter?!

I appreciate the clarification CATO. Didn't mean to make everyone go on the defensive. I've been frustrated by the LL coaches I deal with here and it spilled over onto this forum.

No IFF in Majors? WOW

[catoblue]

No IFF in Majors? WOW

No kidding - wait til they get into tournament play and it gets called - can you say "deer in the head lights"?

"infield fly what?!" B)

[yawetag]

The rules for the local league are 1st offense - warning 2nd offense - out 3rd offense - ejection.

Is this per team, or per player?

[Armgdnman]

Is this per team, or per player?

Per team

[mstaylor]

Let me add my on bat throwing. I have been involved with LL baseball for 36 years and the internet boards for twenty plus. I have seen many, many permeatations of the bat throwing. I have seenit called correctly on an appopreate bat throwing violation. I have seen it called incorrectly on an appropreate bat throwing violation. I have even seen it called incorrectly at an allstar game, get kicked to Williamsport andd they screw it up, damn janitor. That's bad trainng or no training and can be fixed.

The part I want to discuss is the call itself. I have seen players that swing and just let go. This is dangerous and needs to be dealt with. But I have seen guys swing and throw their bat off to the side, sometimes close to the fence. If this is done under control this IS NOT BAT THROWING! On a sixty foot field there is no ondeck batter so there is nobody over there. On 90 ft it is possible for it be dangerous but if it is done with control then it's most likely nothing. The guy that swings and just throws it away with no idea where it is going most likely is bat throwing.

Too many guys, especially in the younger guys, will call a kid for bat throwing that should never be even thought about but done in the name of safety. When you guys are out there working games or helping newer guys, make sure they understand the difference for when to call it.

The last part of bat throwing is the one done in anger. There is no warning, no please don't do that, there is only a swift ejection.

[yawetag]

The part I want to discuss is the call itself. I have seen players that swing and just let go. This is dangerous and needs to be dealt with. But I have seen guys swing and throw their bat off to the side, sometimes close to the fence. If this is done under control this IS NOT BAT THROWING!

I definitely agree. For me to call it, the throw had to have been uncontrolled.