LL - does the run count?

[TC3]

I'm gonna try another question.

R2, R3, 1 out.

Batter hits a low fly between F7 & F8. Runners leave immediately. oops.

F7 makes a nice running catch and then throws directly to B2, causing the runner from B2 to be out for failure to tag up.

R3 arrived home before the catch at B2 for the 3rd out. But he failed tag up at B3. If he had tagged up, there's no way he would have made it home before the 3rd out.

Scorekeeper sez: "Did that run count?"

Ump (me): "No."

When I said "no", I wasn't thinking about the specific rule that allows a run to count if it occurs before the 3rd out (non force). Rather, I was thinking - "Didn't tag up. It can't count."

But I can't find a specific rule to support my decision.

All the fielders entered their dugout, and the opposing team took the field, therefore too late for a protest.

However, the offensive coach came over and asked me why the run didn't count. I said "didn't tag up". He shrugged and walked away.

Was I right?

I see a couple of possible variations on this situation that might come up in the future:

1 - suppose the offensive coach makes a timely protest to have the run counted because the run scored before a non-forced 3rd out. Does failure to tag up preclude the run from counting? What if the defensive coach sees this protest happening before his players have left the field, and his players then throw to B3 for the 4th out on appeal? Does that affect the ruling for the run scoring?

2 - suppose the umpire had answered the scorekeeper "Yes", then the defensive coach had protested? Does the run count or not? Is the answer dependent on whether the defense executed a timely and effective "4th out" appeal at B3 before the making the protest?

Thanks.

[Umpire in Chief]

In this situation the run should count until properly appealed by the defense.

[ukce1861]

In this situation, would you wait until the defense left the field before using the "Score that run, that run scores" mechanic?

[Umpire in Chief]

I would signal it once the defense has lost their right to appeal, anything earlier would be coaching.

[noumpere]

I would signal it once the defense has lost their right to appeal, anything earlier would be coaching.

I don't think it's coaching at all.

Treat it just the same as you would if R3 had tagged up. If the timing is close (and I admit that's judgment), then signal the score or not (as the case may be). If R3 crossed the plate well in advance of the out at second, then there's no need to indicate anything.

[rpumpire]

All the fielders entered their dugout, and the opposing team took the field, therefore too late for a protest.

It's not too late for a protest until after the first pitch. The fielders leaving and/or taking the field have nothing to do with the timeliness of a protest.

[ukce1861]

It's not too late for a protest until after the first pitch. The fielders leaving and/or taking the field have nothing to do with the timeliness of a protest.

7.10 OBR

Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.

[TC3]

Thanks, I think I've got it.

Situation 1 above wouldn't exist if the right call was made originally.

In situation 2, is it necessary for the defense to 1st execute a proper appeal play for the 4th out at B3 if they want to have the run removed? Or could they just protest that the runner failed to tag up?

[ukce1861]

Thanks, I think I've got it.

Situation 1 above wouldn't exist if the right call was made originally.

In situation 2, is it necessary for the defense to 1st execute a proper appeal play for the 4th out at B3 if they want to have the run removed? Or could they just protest that the runner failed to tag up?

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by protest...

If R3 doesn't tag up and scores before R2 is called out on the appeal, then the only way R3's run doesn't count is if the defense appeals. Which would be done by tagging the runner or 3rd base. This appeal can only happen before all the defensive players leave fair territory, since the play ends the half inning. There's no protest here though. A protest would be the defense disagreeing with the umpire's application of the rules. Failure of a runner to tag is not a protest situation.

[TC3]

I see what you're saying.

If defense successfully appeals, the umpire removes the run on the appeal.

The defense is not required to make a protest after an appeal to have the run removed.

I got it.

Thanks!

[crazyaboutcoues]

Could this be a fourth out situation if it is properly appealed, so the run would not score? Otherwise the run scores if not appealed...

[DirtyDawg]

Yep

[rpumpire]

I posted about the timeliness of a protest because that is the word you used, and it is surely what the offense should do if the umpire failed to score a runner who crossed the plate and was not called out on appeal.