Look at this play..

[BillB1960]

The biggest problem with all of this is that you have base umpires 90+ feet away changing a call at the plate. This is one of those plays where you call the guy out and nobody says boo. This is the ol' taking the crappy end of the stick senerio. Whats next? Managers are going to want umps to get together on all tag plays @ the plate? You have to let Ripper live and die with his call...right or wrong.

Like I said in an earlier post, the guys on the bases couldn't possibly have seen the tag at the plate, but they could see the catcher holding the ball up. He stuck his right hand in the air with the ball in it and showed it to the PU who already knew he'd booted it. I could read his lips "I got the f***in' ball!" I don't think the crew chief or any other ump other than the PU changed the call. The discussion lasted maybe 5 seconds and the call was reversed.

[BillB1960]

You guys must have a different video than I see to be so sure either way.

Like I said, during the live broadcast they showed at least 3 more angles than the MLB video shows not including the ones where Francona got his money's worth. It was definitive.

[UMP45]

Bill I guess what I'm getting at is who cares if they get it right or not. In the whole scheme of things what they do dosen't effect me so I could care less. The problem is we have to many umpires who dissect a play and then when it LOOKS like they could have missed it then it's Katy bar the doors they start ripping them. I worry about my little part of baseball and that is enough. I wish I would have gone to school but could never afford it. Where I'm from when we get together we talk about a play, on tv , we talk about position and if it was right or would have had a better look in a different one. Then we move on. It is just getting to the point where there is to much ripping going on.

[Thunderheads]

Although the best on the planet, ... they make mistakes, and unfortunately they're all caught under super slo-mo and tons of camera angles, but, ...it comes with the business.

What we can do is learn from these situations, period.

What we shouldn't do is; be afraid to criticize just because they have the MLB hat on. My biggest gripe about this site and others is that there are so many people that will defend the MLB guys regardless of what happens and to me, that's just stupid. We all screw the pooch from time to time, ...even them. Don't be afraid to say, ... "he blew this" ....and quit defending things that really don't need to defended. Yes, this is a brotherhood,... but come on folks, let's get real.

There are some calls that after all videos are inconclusive and there's no way to tell in real time. Some are just ....ooops ...it happens.

But, ... let's let folks post their points of view and thoughts on certain plays and learn from it all. And dont' be so quick to jump on someone just because they're 'calling out' a pro umpire. It should benefit us all, right?

[mstaylor]

What you say is true, they do mess up and when they do it is generally ugly. In this play it is possible he saw the empty glove and called safe. The video is not conclusive how the ball got to his hand or when. The conference and reversal may have been right, maybe not. In my opinion, the coference is dead wrong no matter the outcome. The PU should make the call and live with it.

[BillB1960]

What you say is true, they do mess up and when they do it is generally ugly. In this play it is possible he saw the empty glove and called safe. The video is not conclusive how the ball got to his hand or when. The conference and reversal may have been right, maybe not. In my opinion, the coference is dead wrong no matter the outcome. The PU should make the call and live with it.

It sure would've been interesting to be in the huddle. I wonder who decided to change the call. My guess is Ripperger wanted to change it and the crew chief let him. Hard to say because Ripperger is a rookie. I can see the CC saying, "OK if you want to change it go ahead but you have to explain it to Francona!" Either way they went a manager was going to get tossed.

[BillB1960]

Bill I guess what I'm getting at is who cares if they get it right or not. In the whole scheme of things what they do dosen't effect me so I could care less. The problem is we have to many umpires who dissect a play and then when it LOOKS like they could have missed it then it's Katy bar the doors they start ripping them. I worry about my little part of baseball and that is enough. I wish I would have gone to school but could never afford it. Where I'm from when we get together we talk about a play, on tv , we talk about position and if it was right or would have had a better look in a different one. Then we move on. It is just getting to the point where there is to much ripping going on.

I think it's just the nature of the beast. We're lucky, most of us don't have the "advantage" of Super Slo Mo to dissect all of our screw ups over and over again. As umpires we're called upon to make split second decisions that can change the outcome of a ball game. We know going in that depending on the field location about half of the crowd is going to be mad at us no matter what call we make. In no other sport that I'm aware of is it actually part of the 'tradition' to insult the officials. Sure we have our own set of mainly self imposed rules & traditions to help balance it out but overall as umpires we pretty much know we're going to get the stinky end of the stick most of the time. One of those unwritten rules is alluded to by mstaylor. In most cases like this one there wouldn't be a conference. The Seattle manager would have come out like he did and gotten tossed and the Red Sox would've gotten a run they didn't deserve solely based on the fact that the umpires wouldn't get together to get the call right because of some unwriten, unpublished rule.

While I'm not sure I've seen anyone here actually relish the opportunity to watch a fellow umpire screw up, it is good to know that even the guys at the top tier of the game aren't perfect and make the odd mistake. They get it right more than 90% of the time IMO but when they get it wrong and it's very clear that they're wrong then they should be willing to admit it and get it right. I applaud the crew from that game and give Francona a big 'Bronx cheer' for his little outburst.

[johnnyg08]

Based on the timing of his call, my guess is that he called the guys in to see if they saw the ball on the ground. When they told him "no," he changed his call to out.

It probably was that simple.

[johnnyg08]

What you say is true, they do mess up and when they do it is generally ugly. In this play it is possible he saw the empty glove and called safe. The video is not conclusive how the ball got to his hand or when. The conference and reversal may have been right, maybe not. In my opinion, the coference is dead wrong no matter the outcome. The PU should make the call and live with it.

I disagree. If he knows he kicked it, this is a changable call. Nothing changes except an out instead of a run. You don't have to place runners or anything else funky.

Obviously you disagree with me...so may I ask you why you feel so strongly about the conference assuming that he asked the question to his crew if the ball was on the ground or rolled out of his glove along his CP or something along those lines, not "Hey Bill, did you think he was out?" because I highly doubt that was the theme of the conversations?

[carolinablue]

Bill I guess what I'm getting at is who cares if they get it right or not. In the whole scheme of things what they do dosen't effect me so I could care less. The problem is we have to many umpires who dissect a play and then when it LOOKS like they could have missed it then it's Katy bar the doors they start ripping them. I worry about my little part of baseball and that is enough. I wish I would have gone to school but could never afford it. Where I'm from when we get together we talk about a play, on tv , we talk about position and if it was right or would have had a better look in a different one. Then we move on. It is just getting to the point where there is to much ripping going on.

I think it's just the nature of the beast. We're lucky, most of us don't have the "advantage" of Super Slo Mo to dissect all of our screw ups over and over again. As umpires we're called upon to make split second decisions that can change the outcome of a ball game. We know going in that depending on the field location about half of the crowd is going to be mad at us no matter what call we make. In no other sport that I'm aware of is it actually part of the 'tradition' to insult the officials. Sure we have our own set of mainly self imposed rules & traditions to help balance it out but overall as umpires we pretty much know we're going to get the stinky end of the stick most of the time. One of those unwritten rules is alluded to by mstaylor. In most cases like this one there wouldn't be a conference. The Seattle manager would have come out like he did and gotten tossed and the Red Sox would've gotten a run they didn't deserve solely based on the fact that the umpires wouldn't get together to get the call right because of some unwriten, unpublished rule.

While I'm not sure I've seen anyone here actually relish the opportunity to watch a fellow umpire screw up, it is good to know that even the guys at the top tier of the game aren't perfect and make the odd mistake. They get it right more than 90% of the time IMO but when they get it wrong and it's very clear that they're wrong then they should be willing to admit it and get it right. I applaud the crew from that game and give Francona a big 'Bronx cheer' for his little outburst.

I always tell newer guys to call what they see on bangers. Half the people will say you are wrong but who's going to prove it.....Nobody. The MLB umpires don't have that luxury due to replay.

[mstaylor]

More times than not when they get together they get it wrong. In MLB they are trained that if one of the other guys have it on the ground, they go in unsolicited. The trend to conference is getting out of hand and needs to be curbed. There are times when two or more guys may have a look at a play and a conference can help but this isn't one of them.

[BillB1960]

More times than not when they get together they get it wrong. In MLB they are trained that if one of the other guys have it on the ground, they go in unsolicited. The trend to conference is getting out of hand and needs to be curbed. There are times when two or more guys may have a look at a play and a conference can help but this isn't one of them.

This play is the exact opposite. The catcher is actually holding the ball up high enough for the whole stadium to see to show he didn't drop it. These guys would've looked like idiots if they didn't change it!

[Mr Umpire]

We're lucky, most of us don't have the "advantage" of Super Slo Mo to dissect all of our screw ups over and over again.

The MLB umpires don't have that luxury due to replay.

I kind of disagree with these statements to some extent. I know they're mistakes get replayed and dissected too much. I completely agree with that. And, having it done all the time would probably get annoying real quick.

But, I don't deem us as "lucky" or a "luxury" that no one can show us we're wrong. My reason is b/c if I am shown to be wrong from many angles including showing where I was on the play, I'd invite that so I can improve. If I knew I missed something b/c I stepped 2 steps to my left instead of my right and would have gotten a better look at a play, I'd want to know that so I can take those 2 steps right when a play looks similar. In a way, I deem them as the lucky ones or the ones with a luxury. But, that is b/c I want to improve and I'd invite it. Not to the level of MLB abuse b/c others have no lives and have nothing better to do. But, I would like it.

[UMP45]

If I'm not mistaken they get a DVD after their games of "bad" calls and wacky things.

[mstaylor]

More times than not when they get together they get it wrong. In MLB they are trained that if one of the other guys have it on the ground, they go in unsolicited. The trend to conference is getting out of hand and needs to be curbed. There are times when two or more guys may have a look at a play and a conference can help but this isn't one of them.

This play is the exact opposite. The catcher is actually holding the ball up high enough for the whole stadium to see to show he didn't drop it. These guys would've looked like idiots if they didn't change it!

Yes, at the end of the play he does have the ball up high. In the video it is not clear how it got there. Someone said there is video that clearly shows the process, if it exists it isn't the one here. The problem is the umpire's video, his eyes, may have seen the same thing as the video we are seeing.

My point is unless there is clearly a ball on the ground or loose in some manner, the base umpires need to stay out of it. We need to get back to one play, one call. All this getting together is going to lead to umpires being not as good. Talk to a football official that uses replay, they tend to call a play to how it is easier to overturn. Being a football official is tough because so many things happen at a pretty good clip but they are doing a disservice to the game with certain replays.