offering help when you think you shouldn't?

[Dragon29]

OK - I've had time to read all of these responses, and honestly - I think we're all on the same page here.

The contention lies in that we are 'arguing' different issues:

Mr Umpire (& his 'crew') are making a quite correct argument about when it's appropriate to go for help; how one should go for help and how to handle it if/when a call is reversed. I am firmly in the camp that says 'make your own calls' and only go for help when you feel it's absolutely necessary so, I have no issues and no problems w/any of what any of those posters said, except . . . That's not the question I (& others - Jax, for one) were responding to or asking.

All we were asking is whether or not you would offer help if asked. That's it. All of the other (quite valid) points surrounding that issue were not part of the question.

And I agree w/Larry - If my partner points at me, we're getting together; I'm not shouting at him from across the field. Pre-gaming it's a great idea; I've not done that before but it's certainly something worth considering when, as Mike pointed out, you're working w/a less experienced partner.

[HokieUmp]

I don't want a partner that won't help me if I ask for help!

You are a team out there. I don't give a crap what some coach or fan think about me. We are there to make the correct call.

Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves.

Whoa, climb down, Jax. Don't be like that, with that last sentence.

My point isn't so much about giving help, but the manner in for which it's asked. (Or, if you'd prefer I go ahead and end a sentence with a preposition, "but the manner it's asked for". Or something.)

If we were working, and you - as the guy who's closer to the play, and whose call it is - were to just point out to me without so much as a 'by your leave,' you'd probably get my echo of whatever signal you just made.

Having said that, I've pointed across a diamond, and asked a partner for help, but I've asked a specific question to go with it. (And I only did that once.) I was in the middle, and had a play at first where F3 came off the bag and swiped at the runner. I was a fair distance away; if I recall, it was a squibber where I expected the play to be made on R2 going to 3rd, and the fielder "crossed me up." While the angle was fine had F3 been able to stay on the bag, when he came off and swiped, I couldn't tell if he got him. So I pointed to my partner and asked if he had a tag. He said yes, so I then banged the runner.

By asking the question when I went to my partner, I feel like that was better than the scenario Mr Umpire described, but I think I could have done it differently. But I guarantee I wouldn't make a call, get some heat, and simply point down to my partner. And I would hope you wouldn't do that either, Jax. Because I'd be less helpful than you'd want at that point. Call it selfish if you want, but I would think pointing down at your partner, from a distance, and letting him either take the heat for the original call OR take the heat if he changes it - and take that heat BY HIMSELF - falls just as much in the "caring only about yourself" category.

And besides, on the Interwebs, the guys that tend to be "get the call right" types are 1) fairly sanctimonious about it, and 2) have "at all costs" sorta unspoken when they're on their crusades. [Edited to include: "You don't sound like that kind of umpire to me, and I don't want to see you become one."]

[JaxRolo]

I totally agree about the pointing thing. It only belongs On the field in extreme circumstances. I don't recall ever pointing. I make all my calls. If a coach has a question about a rule then I ask for help. Not on judgement calls

[PeteBooth]

I don't want a partner that won't help me if I ask for help!

You are a team out there. I don't give a crap what some coach or fan think about me. We are there to make the correct call.

Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves.

From the OP

"my BU is somewhat straightlined and as the D is clearing the field the 3BC/manager askes if he can go for help."

If you are going to ask for help then do it BUT not after the play is OVER and the defense is leaving the field.

Why! If there were multiple runners how do you know the defense would not have made the play on a different runner. In other words, the teams (offense and defense) REACT to an umpires call (right or wrong). if you want help then by all means go for help BUT do it right away.

In the OP if I was PU I would NOT have changed the call. After the game away from everyone I would simply tell my partner 'Bill next time you need help please do it right away".

You are making a blanket statement Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves without re-examining this particular OP.

The defense was for all practical purposes off the field and now the BU wants help. NO WAY

This is similar to the following.

1-2 count on B1. B1 checks his swing and the ball gets past F2. The PU calls the pitch a ball and DOES NOT ask for help. The defense is pleading with him to ask for help etc. etc. After some 3-4 minutes the PU finally says alright I will check with my partner. You as BU were certain B1 offered at the pitch. What do you do?

Answer: Nothing the pitch is a ball let's play.

Why! If the PU had done his job and asked right away, B1 might have made it to first base (the ball got past F2) but because the pitch was called a ball B1 stayed in the box. If you as BU change the call to a strike (it's now strike 3) you just gave the defense a "cheap" out and in a way bailed them out.

This particular OP IMO has nothing to do with your statement "Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves."

We care about the GAME

Pete Booth

[JaxRolo]

I don't want a partner that won't help me if I ask for help!

You are a team out there. I don't give a crap what some coach or fan think about me. We are there to make the correct call.

Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves.

From the OP

"my BU is somewhat straightlined and as the D is clearing the field the 3BC/manager askes if he can go for help."

If you are going to ask for help then do it BUT not after the play is OVER and the defense is leaving the field.

Why! If there were multiple runners how do you know the defense would not have made the play on a different runner. In other words, the teams (offense and defense) REACT to an umpires call (right or wrong). if you want help then by all means go for help BUT do it right away.

In the OP if I was PU I would NOT have changed the call. After the game away from everyone I would simply tell my partner 'Bill next time you need help please do it right away".

You are making a blanket statement Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves without re-examining this particular OP.

The defense was for all practical purposes off the field and now the BU wants help. NO WAY

This is similar to the following.

1-2 count on B1. B1 checks his swing and the ball gets past F2. The PU calls the pitch a ball and DOES NOT ask for help. The defense is pleading with him to ask for help etc. etc. After some 3-4 minutes the PU finally says alright I will check with my partner. You as BU were certain B1 offered at the pitch. What do you do?

Answer: Nothing the pitch is a ball let's play.

Why! If the PU had done his job and asked right away, B1 might have made it to first base (the ball got past F2) but because the pitch was called a ball B1 stayed in the box. If you as BU change the call to a strike (it's now strike 3) you just gave the defense a "cheap" out and in a way bailed them out.

This particular OP IMO has nothing to do with your statement "Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves."

We care about the GAME

Pete Booth

I agree 100% as it relates to the op.

But some of the other posters made it sound like they don't help at all.

Last year I had a BU that at pregame told me to never come to him on a check swing because he would not offer help on that.

[mstaylor]

I don't want a partner that won't help me if I ask for help!

You are a team out there. I don't give a crap what some coach or fan think about me. We are there to make the correct call.

Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves.

From the OP

"my BU is somewhat straightlined and as the D is clearing the field the 3BC/manager askes if he can go for help."

If you are going to ask for help then do it BUT not after the play is OVER and the defense is leaving the field.

Why! If there were multiple runners how do you know the defense would not have made the play on a different runner. In other words, the teams (offense and defense) REACT to an umpires call (right or wrong). if you want help then by all means go for help BUT do it right away.

In the OP if I was PU I would NOT have changed the call. After the game away from everyone I would simply tell my partner 'Bill next time you need help please do it right away".

You are making a blanket statement Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves without re-examining this particular OP.

The defense was for all practical purposes off the field and now the BU wants help. NO WAY

This is similar to the following.

1-2 count on B1. B1 checks his swing and the ball gets past F2. The PU calls the pitch a ball and DOES NOT ask for help. The defense is pleading with him to ask for help etc. etc. After some 3-4 minutes the PU finally says alright I will check with my partner. You as BU were certain B1 offered at the pitch. What do you do?

Answer: Nothing the pitch is a ball let's play.

Why! If the PU had done his job and asked right away, B1 might have made it to first base (the ball got past F2) but because the pitch was called a ball B1 stayed in the box. If you as BU change the call to a strike (it's now strike 3) you just gave the defense a "cheap" out and in a way bailed them out.

This particular OP IMO has nothing to do with your statement "Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves."

We care about the GAME

Pete Booth

I agree 100% as it relates to the op.

But some of the other posters made it sound like they don't help at all.

Last year I had a BU that at pregame told me to never come to him on a check swing because he would not offer help on that.

Then tell him to pick another sport because that is part of his job.

[1dumbquestion]

I don't want a partner that won't help me if I ask for help!

You are a team out there. I don't give a crap what some coach or fan think about me. We are there to make the correct call.

Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves.

From the OP

"my BU is somewhat straightlined and as the D is clearing the field the 3BC/manager askes if he can go for help."

If you are going to ask for help then do it BUT not after the play is OVER and the defense is leaving the field.

Why! If there were multiple runners how do you know the defense would not have made the play on a different runner. In other words, the teams (offense and defense) REACT to an umpires call (right or wrong). if you want help then by all means go for help BUT do it right away.

In the OP if I was PU I would NOT have changed the call. After the game away from everyone I would simply tell my partner 'Bill next time you need help please do it right away".

You are making a blanket statement Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves without re-examining this particular OP.

The defense was for all practical purposes off the field and now the BU wants help. NO WAY

This is similar to the following.

1-2 count on B1. B1 checks his swing and the ball gets past F2. The PU calls the pitch a ball and DOES NOT ask for help. The defense is pleading with him to ask for help etc. etc. After some 3-4 minutes the PU finally says alright I will check with my partner. You as BU were certain B1 offered at the pitch. What do you do?

Answer: Nothing the pitch is a ball let's play.

Why! If the PU had done his job and asked right away, B1 might have made it to first base (the ball got past F2) but because the pitch was called a ball B1 stayed in the box. If you as BU change the call to a strike (it's now strike 3) you just gave the defense a "cheap" out and in a way bailed them out.

This particular OP IMO has nothing to do with your statement "Shame On you guys that only care about yourselves."

We care about the GAME

Pete Booth

Hey guys, OP here. I understand what you're saying about asking for help too late in the stage of events. In my sitch it was the 3rd out with no other runners, the BU came to me as soon as 3BC asked him to get help, if it had been the 1st or 2nd out it would have been just fine (I think). The D cleared as soon as my partner made the call, it was probably all of 10-12 seconds between the call and walking down to talk with me, no, he didn't just point he came to have a private conversation. thanks for all the feedback and insite on this type of sitch. 1

[PeteBooth]

And I agree w/Larry - If my partner points at me, we're getting together; I'm not shouting at him from across the field. Pre-gaming it's a great idea; I've not done that before but it's certainly something worth considering when, as Mike pointed out, you're working w/a less experienced partner.

It depends. No need to get together all the time when your partner needs help.

Example;

My partner is in "C". Ground ball to F6 who throws to F3. F3 has to stretch for the ball. In my partners judgement ball beat the runner BUT he is not sure if F3 was on the bag or not.

In the aforementioned, no need to get together. My partner would simply say "Pete did he have the bag" to which I would respond. Remember keep the game moving if you can.

Pete Booth