RBIbaseball

R1, no outs. 14U USSSA I'm PU, my partner in B gets drilled by a hard line drive in the chest. I call time instantly and am walking to my partner. The players continue to play it out and throw the runner out at first. As I'm halfway and the play stops. I stop again and declare BR safe at first and put R1 on 2B. Coach is yelling that we still threw him out. I yell over to the coach that it's immediate dead ball, and BR essentially gets a single out of it, tough luck. I finish it off with a, "hey partner, you know you're suppose to dodge OUT of the way of those, not into them, right" ... Luckily he was okay. Anyway. Point to the story, and question. Coach follows up with checking on the umpire as well, then tells me ina very respectful (but still trying to get the call changed) manner as we are both walking back towards his dugout: "you know you got that wrong, right" . Um, ya why's that coach. "Ya, it's suppose to be a live ball" No. I'm 100% sure it's a dead ball once it hits my partner off the bat" Very confidently coach says again, "nope it's a live ball, we've had that play before" I close it out by saying, "Coach, the calls the call, and I tell you what. I am very confident I'm right, but I understand you are too. So let's both look it up after the game and double check ourselves." Coach seemed a little caught off guard by that proposal, but we move on. Had the team later in the day and coach thanks me and admits he was wrong, "teaching" me the difference of whether the umpire is in front of or behind the infielders. I told him I looked it up to just be sure. I said those other times it happened was at a younger age where the umpires were behind the infield, huh? He admits yes, and we all move on with our lives, better for it. How do you guys like my , "we'll both go look it up de-escalation" . I kinda came up with it on the fly. Does it scream a lack of confidence and you recommend against it, or a humble approach that will prove to be useful going forward... ? Did I just get lucky that it worked out so well this time ... What if there was a chance I could be wrong, would that change anything? Curious as to what you guys think. Should I remove this tactic from my toolbox? Edit: for what it's worth my partner thought it was a live ball too and that I got it wrong

Just to entertain your hypothesis . I have done 95% fed ball over my 3 years of umpiring and did a 14U tournament just last Saturday with this ruling (first time adjusting to this ruling as the other tad bit of travel ball Ive done didn't have this). After I read "no 3rd to 1st move" and "balks are delayed dead balls" I automatically assumed/translated that to **OBR balk rules full stop** is what is meant to be enforced. I didn't even consider that a feint to 3B would still be legal like Eric suggests should be the case by how it's worded. Right or wrong, just thought it was funny/interesting.

I don't disagree . But that's basically where we differ. And I would argue you are indeed doing the same thing you accusing us of, but just to a lesser degree I would have said that it is commonly understood is that a "3rd to 1st move" being illegal means they are taking the OBR "feinting to 3rd being illegal" but just stating it in the most commonly seen example for coaches ... But it's obviously not commonly understood, as you argue it should be read literally and not expounded upon Anyways , I digress ... We're not so far off here as it may appear

Like I said for myself, I follow your logic and it does make me question how I might handle this going further. Last weekend a coach asked if 3rd to 1st was legal at the plate meeting, and I responded "feints to 3rd are illegal" , even tho it was this exact situation where only the 3rd to 1st and delayed dead ball were highlighted as the changes. To play devil's advocate, if a pitcher feints to 3B then turns and feints to 1B (assuming F1 brings pivot foot off the rubber in feint to 3B), do you have a balk? I would assume No, based on your previous arguments. Coach would say that 3rd to 1st is illegal , and it doesn't explicitly say anything about feinting or not feinting .... So in your own words, wouldn't you be adding your own context into this rule? The same as we did (albeit admittedly to a lesser degree) by filling in the intent of "no feints, period"? edit: unless your rule specifies feint , then throw ... But mine didn't

He really wasn't too far off. He was maybe 5-6 feet off the bag, and the throw took him within 2-4 feet. Apparently this coach wants the player straddling the bag or it's a balk ... Smh

Thank you. I would say my description of a step and a reach from making a play isn't too far off "being able to try a tag" Is it fair to say this can be applied in FED as well? Or does FED have a different "line in the sand" ?

The reason I was patient with the coach is in this case it was a designed play to get R1 to take off and throw him out at 2B from F5s pickoff relay (I know this for certain , because the defensive coach was clapping up his players complimenting them for executing it just like they had practiced) In this case if F5 was 15 feet off the base, I think it could and should be a balk In my judgement he was close enough to 3B that it was legal

If I look like a fool to a bunch of fools, who cares. The lack of communication and the level of umpire quality in the current system I'm doing weekend ball in is dismal. The last thing I'm worried about is my reputation in the eyes of this circus ring.

I see the logic, and I'm not claiming who's right or wrong . But if I see a ruleset say "no 3rd to 1st move" , I would enforce that all day every day as "feints to 3B are illegal". More than likely I would state it like that in the plate meeting too, since it's very often asked by the coaches there anyway.

14U USSSA - OBR balk rules R1 and R3 Defense executed a play where RHP pickoff to 3B. F5 catches the ball and throws to 2B who tags R1 who went on pitchers first move. In this case F5 moved toward 3B to catch the ball and was maybe 2-4 feet max off the base, and if R3 was caught sleeping, he was well within range to make a play on him. After the play, assistant coach from the dugout yells that it's a balk because he didn't throw directly toward 3B. I ignore him from the field. My partner seems to as well. Then he walks out and looks towards the plate and says again "Blue, you have to throw directly to the base, that's a balk". My partner has deer in headlights, so I yell over to the coach "He threw to 3B base coach, no balk." He responds "He wasn't at the base". I put my hand up kinda in a stop sign fashion and say, "He was 2 feet off the base coach, no balk". He responds with a gotcha inflection, "exactly, 2 feet, So he's not on the base" as he kinda gave up and started walking back... I chuckle inside the same way I do when my kids get me with a good comeback (he ain't wrong, lol). He came out to give a sub (I had the pitching card) after that half. He asks, "So you said he was 2 feet off, how many feet is he allowed to be off" . I told him that it's a judgement call, and he was well within the vicinity of the base to make a play. He asks again how far off the base is in the vicinity. I told him I think most people would say youre in the vicinity if you are a step and a reach from making a play on the runner, but as long as the throw is towards that base its going to be tough to get unless it's blatantly obvious. He thanks me for explaining it to him. No issues further. I posted in the rules forum because I mainly want to check my knowledge and understanding To the coaches question: What is the threshold for throwing toward 3B? If F3 would have been standing 15 ft off the bag, then relayed to 2B, that would indeed be a balk, correct? I'm open to any critique on how I handled the situation and explanation as well.

I'm not talking a 20-0 route and showing a little mercy to get folks home... I'm talking about an average HS varsity game... I had a game a couple weeks ago with a respected veteran umpire in my region (has went to state finals a couple times)... R1 stealing second, ball beats runner by 2 steps. Due to poor tag / great slide, F6 whiffs the swipe tag, missing runner by a couple inches through entire tag. Think MLB swim move, but just not as fancy. I call safe, "no tag", and give the safe signal a second time. F6 knows it and does some self reflection, I hear it from the 3B dugout / fans on how can I miss that "ball beat him by a mile", but no one comes to argue. Anyways, half inning, my PU asks me what I saw, and I tell him. His response, "you gotta get an out there". "You're the only one in the ballpark that knows he's safe, just get an out"... Went on to talk about game management, etc. Asked another veteran umpire about that advice and he said something along the lines of, once you get more experience you'll know when you should make the "smart call, over the correct call" or something along those lines.... Thoughts? I'm a get it right integrity kind of guy, and F the noise of anything after... I'm out there to get the call right for that kid in that moment that did or didn't make a play... Do you guys suggest I take this advice and adjust my mindset. Would that make me a "better" umpire? ... Serious question. Thanks

So I guess it would be wrong to signal 'safe' and point back to where the obstruction was first declared, and let the play continue on? Mechanic wise, for a more simple example, let's say a BR was obstructed by F3 rounding 1B and then thrown out by a couple steps. Is the correct mechanic to signal 'out', then call time and delcare the obstruction and awared the BR 2B? Is it strictly wrong to just call safe and declare the obstruction is the reason for the safe call, or even call time, then declare he's safe? ... why do we have to call him out?

I'm not 100% on this, so wait for someone smarter than me to chime in before you take it to the bank; My understanding is that it's umpire's discretion, to place runners and make calls based on what they thought would happen if the umpire didn't mess up - to the best of their ability. - If the runner stealing ignored the call and kept going full speed, and still got thrown out... then no harm no foul, he was out. - If the runner obviously slowed because of the reversed balk call, and was only thrown out by a half a step... then might make sense to score the runner. - If he slowed down but was still thrown out by 3 steps... probably would have been out anyways, call him out. That all being said, I don't think there is ever a case where you could put the runner back on 3B and call a "re-do". Unless somehow this umpire has the premonition to predict a rundown where the runner would have made it back to 3B safely, lol.

What's the ruleset ? High school NHFS, Little League, ? Are you questioning the Balk, or accepting the Balk / No Balk call and only want to know whether they should give the runner a re-do since the umpire may have confused him?

Okay, the "lead off" part is what I didn't connect. If I'm understanding this right, the BR can run as far past 1st as he wants, then continue on to 2nd (on the same play). But that same player cannot assume a "lead off" from 1B during the next pitch, without first returning to and touching 1B.

Okay, that makes sense, but that goes against the verbiage in @Senor Azul 's response does it not? Or what am I missing?

Okay, so you're in luck ... I ran this play through my Paint.exe AI analysis program, and here is what I came up with... I evaluated the video frame by frame and to the best of my ability plotted out both the foot position and the center of mass of 4 major points in time: 1. The position of the runner when the first tag attempt was made. 2. The inital landing position of the runner on one foot after the dodge (right foot on the ground, left foot swinging in the air). 3. The final position of the runner after her momentum came under control (bent over with left knee of the ground) 4. The position of the runner after dodge #2, where she lept backward and to the left directly behind home plate. Giving the runner the benefit of the doubt and making the "straight line to the plate" the furthest point on the plate to give the runner an advantage, I graphed the approximate established basepath at the point of tag #1 (red dashed line) and #3 (pink dashed line). Using the batter's box turned sideways as a scale, and applying my knowledge of the pythagorem theorum, I conclude that dodge #1 only took the runner approximately 2.5 feet out of the first established basepath. HOWEVER, the dodge #2 she lept approximately five feet to the left and 3' and 2 1/2" backwards, resulting in her leaving the 2nd established bathpath by a distance of 5' and 11 & 1/8". Conclusion: Umpire should have called the runner out on the second dodge for leaving the basepath. DISCLAIMER: Margin of error of analysis = 0-100%

I did not know this, but now would also like to ask where do we draw the line? Given a typical "standard" scenario of a BR overrunning first by 3 or 4 steps, and then noticing an overthrow as the ball caroms up the fence toward right field. The BR simply turns and runs toward 2B and reaches safely. By the simplied description you gave, that would be an out if appealed at 1B? ... I'm guessing no, but what am I missing? So there in lies the OPs question, how far past 1B can he overrun and still turn and advance toward 2B? We know the foul pole is too far, but we know 3 or 4 steps is acceptable (or is it not, and just know one knows this?)... where's the cutoff?

Great . Thanks guys. I was pretty sure it had to be intentional at the point he became a BR. Being able to articulate that difference going forward will be a good for me. @maven noted . I think I will point and give a safe signal in the future... I've had a couple instances where folks think I "didn't understand" and was "justifying after the fact" , when if I just would have gave a mechanic showing that I saw that and it's nothing would have saved me some trouble

NHFS, R2, righty at the plate R2 attempts to steal 3B... Ball 4, waaay outside, F2 slides over and full extension snatches it on the outside of the batter box... Catcher gathers and plants right foot a few feet outside and about halfway up the batter box to throw toward 3B BR was very quick to toss his bat and quickly runs toward 1B at same moment At the moment F2 goes to throw, BR is right in front of the plate (completely out of the box) and arguably in the line of F2s throw... F2 holds the throw as to not hit the BR I made no call, and I didnt get too much complaint from anyone but the catcher who asked me for a call there --------- Tbh, I was 50/50 on whether I felt the catcher had a lane to throw behind the BR, but ultimately made no call... Did he stop his throw because BR was in the way, or because he knew R2 was going to be safe... Not sure My rational in the heat of the moment was: BR doing all normal things, no intent. On any other throw to 3B he would have been well out of the way. I wasn't going to penalize him for a wild pitch that took the catcher to a weird spot to make the throw... So I erred on the side of the BR --------- In hind sight, I was very unsure, and felt he probably was in the path of the throw enough to warrant Does the BR advancing to 1B have any protections, or is he required to be aware and avoid this, regardless of intent ?

I took it as @The Man in Blue was bringing clarity to @Senor Azul's example (to ensure those who need the FED understanding don't get confused) In OBR, the BR would be awarded 1st base if all preceding bases were occupied as well, because the outcome of the play (ball 4) would meet the criteria of everyone advancing at least one base due to the baserunners being forced to advance. For example if the OP had runners R1 and R2, then the BR would be awarded 1B on a walk - thus nullifying the balk. In FED, (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I thought @The Man in Bluewas highlighting), the ball is dead immediately, so even if there was R1 and R2, the BR would still remain at the plate with a 3-1 count, even though a walk would force all runners to advance.

The location of the ball (when it is touched) is what matters. By your description, the ball was first touch while over foul territory - foul ball.

Wanted to chime in to proactively clarify for OP: 1. Don't be confused, @noumpere meant to say R1 is awarded second base. 2. When he says "motion started" he is talking about the pitcher starting his pickoff throw (the start of the balk motion). A balk results in an award of ONE base to all baserunners - determined by their position at that "motion started" moment.

Assuming you are accurate on ruleset and the fact that F1 disengaged off the feint to 3B, you are correct. Considering it's rec ball how sure are you they were using nfhs (high-school) ruleset? In OBR (MLB, LL, Babe Ruth, etc.) feinting to 3B is illegal and the umpire would have been correct to call a balk.

Although close, I personally had a stop here, and I don't consider the corner of the glove flapping as "movement" of F1 that could contribute to a balk call. I had a kid in high school the other week that was just "shaky" for lack of a better description... he was clearly pausing, but had an inherent shake in his arms/glove (picture a symptom of being very nervous). It was less movement than on this video, but the entire glove/arms, and it carried on throughout until start of delivery. I hope others aren't calling things like that a balk. Additionally, if F1 is moving his hand around inside the glove gripping for a curve (F1 completely set, glove is stopped, but obviously wiggling with the motion of his hand turning in the glove, do people call that a balk? Cause I definitely don't.