RBIbaseball

A common misconception is that a "force out" is only made by tagging the base before the runner gets there. But as Maven explained, tagging the runner (who is forced to advanced by the batter becoming a runner) at any time before reaching the base he/she is forced to advanced to, is also a "force out".

I guess where I'm confused is " except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter". The way that reads is all the steps (one step backward, one step forward) are part of his "actual delivery". I am thinking of an extra toe tap being part of his natural movement/delivery and part of his "actual delivery of the ball to the batter". That's where I am confused, but again it seems as though I am reading between the lines and not taking it at face value.

If you are standing still and you pick up your foot and put it back where it was in the same spot, is that a step? According to dictionary.com it is not. Even so, every rule quoted talks about stepping in a specific direction. So playing devil's advocate, I still say the rule doesn't stop a player from a sort of toe tap or reset in place with his free foot, as long as it is a consistent part of his natural pitching motion. Am I reading between the lines too much? My background leads me to be over analytical at times, so perhaps I should read with a little more spirit.

Seems like they were doing nothing wrong unless your league implemented a rule against it. Here's the entire 4.06 from the 2019 LL baseball rules: 4.06 - No manager, coach, or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere - ( a) incite, or try to incite, by word or sign, a demonstration by spectators; ( b) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire, or spectators; ( c) make any move calculated to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/ Junior/ Senior League]; ( d) take a position in the batter’s line of vision, with the deliberate intent to distract the batter. The umpire may first warn the player, coach, and/ or manager. If continued, remove the player, coach, and/ or manager from the game or bench. If such action causes an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/ Junior/ Senior League], it shall be nullified. And for those who are curious the LL softball rules are verbatim. The few LL softball games I have umpired so far have team chants referring to the other players batters/pitchers throughout the entire game... so I guess if I was enforcing the rule, I should have put a stop to those ones? ie "Look at that pitcher, is she high or is she low, is she fast or is she slow" - something like that, lol - seems innocent enough and no one has ever complained, but technically referring to the pitcher.

Sounds like as long as the fielder (at the position he fielded it) was in reach of a tag attempt at third base it is not a balk.

I would say that the 3rd bolded line (below) definitely takes care of that explanation then, as well as the comment from 5.07(a) that you quoted originally. If it was more of a toe touch in place, my point was gonna be that one one could have made an argument that it was a natural move associated with 'his' delivery (if he was consistent),was neither a step forward or a step backwards, and therefor legal. Just my interpretation, but I'm new to this so take it with a grain of salt. From OBR 5.07... From this position [windup position] any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

Curiosity Question since we obviously have no video: Did he essentially toe tap his free foot in the exact same spot where his foot landed during his initial step toward first base? To clarify, he only created two "footprints" on the ground with his free foot before releasing the ball? Or did he reset himself/(catch his balance) with his free foot at another point on the ground? Just trying to visualize it a bit more.

I see this was Legion ball, but if LL rules were to be confused by coaches or players, there is a difference: 6.05(b): A.R. - (Majors/Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League) When a batter becomes a runner on a third strike that is not caught, and starts for the bench or his/her position, that batter may advance to first base at any time before entering the dugout or any other dead ball area. To put the batter out, the defense must tag the batter or first base before the batter touches first base.

The part I found interesting was the time in between the inaction pitches, and I think that's a pretty fair comparison (regardless of everything else that happened in the game). One game is still crazy to get caught up on though, as the 1984 pitcher might have just been a guy who likes to work fast compared to the 2014. Sample size definitely too small, but I would be interested in someone just looking at those inaction pitches with a 50+ game sample size... ain't gonna be me though.

Makes a lot of sense, but what could be done to combat those extra few seconds other than asking nicely that pitchers try their best to speed it up? Taking your numbers: 1984 - 13.47 sec in between each inaction pitch 2014 - 24.03 sec in between 10+ sec is quite a long time, but not so long in itself where I could see a good way of enforcing a speed up. Perhaps yearly MLB bonuses in relation to the time the pitcher saves throughout the season... lol. I suppose it's not only the pitchers fault tho.

@The Man in Blue Thanks for going a little more in depth on how the situation was handled. Very helpful.

@Thunderheads Thanks sir. The 10 games I've done at LL has only reinforced my passion. I have know it was something that I wanted to do for the longest time and has always been a goal of mine. What has stopped me is constant movement, work hours, and deployments, but I'm in a little more relaxed position now as far as that goes. Professional ball is not the end all be all, as I may find that's not what I want to pursue. But like in my career, I try to set my standards high and then see where I end up. Thanks for the tips.

Understandable. I was more annoyed with her attitude about it. The fact she got it wrong is whatever, I can look past that. @ousafe Thanks. I'll remove that stealing/unoccupied myth from my brain now... not sure where that came about for me.

PM'd

So, in baseball, if the runner commits to a steal prior to release of the pitch, the base is no longer occupied, correct? If so, that's what I was thinking of from playing baseball when I was younger. If not, I guess just a myth that was stuck in my head.

Thanks for the replies. That all makes sense. I'm not sure why the PU tried to make a call at first base, but being on the other side of the infield, I didn't think it was appropriate to call "Out" as she was signaling safe... I mean for the first half of the play I was confused and not sure how to intervene. Next time in a situation with a lackluster PU I will probably just announce the batter out as they go to run (if only to help out the PU from confusing anything). In a situation where something gets messed up like this, at the very least I'll try to step in directly after the play ends and sort it out, regardless of a coach asking. This PU does not take her job very seriously to say the least. The next game I worked with her, the same PU called a stealing runner out (minor league baseball) for leaving early. I didn't correct it as I was not 100% sure, only about 99%, lol. Both coaches accepted the ruling. I went to her after the inning and let her know that I was quite confident that when a runner leaves early they are just returned to the base after the play. Her response was something along the lines of, "You might be right, but this late into the season they should know better, so they're out in my book." She also made multiple comments to the parents and the scorekeeper about the time limit and how she wants to time the end in the inning so everyone can get out of there sooner... But, the league has a hard time getting umpires, so.. ya.

To preface, this happened in my 4th game I've ever umpired as I am brand new to the business. I have always been a student of the game and have been studying rules and umpire mechanics more closely since I'm putting myself out there. I'm 32yr old if that's relevant. Game 1 - Majors LL softball: R1 and R2, 1 out, dropped 3rd strike situation with the ball traveling to the backstop. BR takes off down 1st base line and everyone is yelling "Go, Go, Go". PU signals strike with no other verbal signal and stands there looking at the play as she starts to pitter patter a few feet toward first base following the runner slightly. I was already moving in position to make a call at 3B if there is one to be had on the passed ball. As it was unfolding I was a little confused for a second as I thought I had been caught off guard and messed something up (dropped 3rd strike was not in my pre-play thoughts with 1B occupied). The BR beat the catcher's throw down to 1B and the PU signaled safe. R2 advanced home safely and R1 advanced to 3B with no play. The ball went back to the pitcher in the circle at the end of the play. By now I have processed that the PU failed to realize or was unaware of the first base being occupied rule. There were about 5 seconds (as in I had time to intervene but I didn't) after the pitcher reset in the circle before the defensive coach asked for time and both coaches approached the home plate ump. I immediately ran up to home plate to assist my PU. I got there as the coach had finished asking a question that I only heard the tail end of about "but they had a runner on first". PU looked at both coaches and I could tell she was lost, so then she looked at me a bit desperately and I took over the conversation from there. I told both coaches that "the BR was out on the strike out and that the dropped third strike was not in play because 1B was occupied with less than 2 outs". Both coaches seemed to be satisfied and the BR was told by her coach that she was out and returned to the dug out. As I was jogging back into position I hear the PU tell the current R3 to return to 1B and that the runner who scored need to return to 2B, as I turned around I saw the defensive coach still had the PU's ear as I had left the meeting. The offensive coach was now looking at me with her hands up like "WTF" as she was walking back toward home plate to talk to PU. The PU was again looking directly at me for help. I immediately stepped in before another meeting occurred and announced (from my current position in the infield) toward the defensive coach "Coach, it was a live ball. The runner stays at 3B and the run scores. The fact that your girls threw down to first to get a runner that was already out is not the offenses fault. The play was still live and the runners had the right to advance." The offensive coach was of course happy with that, and the defensive coach seemed content. Then the offensive coach threw yet another wrench into the situation "but my R1 was stealing so...", which I assume he was trying to say that 1B was no longer occupied and he thought the BR was indeed alive with a dropped 3rd strike. Although to be honest I wasn't sure when she left, I responded very confidently that "R1 did not steal until she saw the past ball, she wasn't going coach on the pitch coach". He said "but they both were stealing". Again I said, "Coach she didn't start going until after the strike out". (This last part I don't know if that is the actual rule as I just pulled that out of my butt from what I remember playing ball. It is possible that the coach wasn't even addressing that but she stopped her argument). Everyone returned to their dugouts and we lived happily ever after. Questions: 1. Was my ruling correct? 2. Should I have jumped in to correct the situation right when the play was over, said something during the play to clarify that the BR was out, or waited a few seconds for the coach to question it like I did? What if the coach just let it go all together, then what? 3. The second go around, was it appropriate for me to announce the ruling from the infield, or should I have let us all come back together and explained it at the plate just between the umps and coaches? 4. If both R1 and R2 were committed to stealing from the pitch release, BR could legally advance on a dropped third strike because 1B would no longer be occupied, correct? (again, not sure on this one as it was a rule I thought I remembered growing up)? 5. Does the fact that the PU went along with the play and signaled safe give the defense any ammunition to say they were confused by the umpire and that R1/R2 should have to return to their original bases? Or perhaps only be awarded 1 base each on the passed ball, as that is all they would have gotten without the confusion? All advice is appreciated. Thanks for reading. -Joe

Hey, I'm Joe. Been lurking the forums for a week or so. I have about 10 little league games under my belt. Just started umpiring a few weeks ago. For me it has been something I have wanted to pursue seriously since I was a high schooler. I'm 32 years old, and have been active duty U.S. Army for 11 years now. I finally have the time to start getting my feet wet in umpiring and hope to be ready to umpire high school games proficiently by next year (if not sooner). Ultimately I believe I want to work up to umpire college or professional ball by the time I'm ready to retire from the military. If you are in the Alaska umpiring scene (or for that matter anyone) and are willing to provide me some mentorship, please send me a PM. The assigner for the games I've done is helpful, but I could definitely use some more direction to get going up here. Also, I have zero gear and local retail up here is virtually zero, so I'm trying to figure out where to start and what to invest in. - Joe