SnareDrum

I'd allow it. The evolution and courtesy of the game allows the batter to keep one foot in the box to take signs or a breath, and if the umpire desires he can hold up the "please don't pitch" or Stop Sign especially if the pitcher comes set and looks like he's ready to pitch. Since the ball is live, a balk possibility exists and a smart and well-coached pitcher will either wait or step off... or try a pick-off. It is not time or dead ball, because if it was I'd call "TIME". I can't imagine calling Time or Dead Ball every time a batter stepped out with a foot to take a sign. This isn't basketball, so the one hand up stop sign isn't timeout. (I was even taught long ago that the stop sign, i.e.: "please don't pitch yet", when the ball is live and not coming off of a dead ball, should be given with the left hand.) In the OP, I'd say all good. Just watch for the balk or quick pitch since the ball is live.

Also, we use this league as a "training ground" for our new umpires. We get to see right away if they can get start putting it all together so they can start moving up the food chain. True there are no ball/strikes, etc., but we can really tell who has "it" and who doesn't even with limited responsibilities. Even with an umpire though, it's amazing how much arguing the coaches will do among themselves anyway, even with me there! I average about 2 or 3 "Knock it off!"s every Friday. Side note: As a their mentor, I do like the fact that I can pass along some knowledge and war stories to the new guys, and this year, new girls, while also fine tuning my skills and remembering what it was like to 7!

Agreed. I usually know exactly what my partner is doing and should be watching, and I'll usually know he saw nothing. But on a call like that, perhaps to all watching and with a game on the line, at least considering the help should be on the table. Even if my partner was watching what he was supposed to be and saw nothing, at least all involved know that an honest attempt at the right call was made. I'm not fan of gratuitous meetings either and I've had only two this year. One on a diving catch and the other on a INT vs. OBS. I had a banger at first with, yes, a possible pulled foot that the coach asked me to check with PU on and I told him (with zero doubts in my mind) that I saw it clearly and the toe was on the bag with the ball in the glove. Let's play.

League: Spring Coach Pitch 7 (Recreational). Rules: OBR w/ modifications that are not important right now This is my "For The Good of The Game" night (a whole other post on this coming soon). I spend most Friday nights either working the CP7 league or training our newbie blues in the basics of mechanics and common sense on the field. It's a great chance for me to "instruct" all involved about the game by my actions and deeds. It's absolutely the most fun I have in any given week... UNTIL... The kids are 7, even 5 and 6 years old. Most have never played baseball before or are just in their second year with very few practices. Most of the CoachDads are also in the 1st or 2nd year as well. On a dirt infield, all of the bases AND the fielders are packed in and things can go from snoozer to insanity in an eyeblink. With all that in mind, and remembering it's a rec league, it's for fun, etc, but a few of the teams are USSSA and really into it (and so are the CoachDads). How would you handle this? The infielders are new at this so they sometimes forget to play in front of or behind the basepath with runners on, and they sometimes don't notice that they're standing right on top of a base with a runner approaching. The runners, as they're advancing, sometimes have to go around F4 or F6 to get to 2nd or 3rd. So, the coaches yell out: "If they get in your way, knock them out the way! Just run over them!!" So I stopped the game right there and loudly announce to all fielders to try to avoid standing in the basepaths when there are runners. Couple of innings later, another runner goes around F8 to keep from plowing him. Again I hear, "Timmy, just push him! Knock him over if you have to!" I know what the rules have for INT/OBS and MC but remember the league and the "Game". So in my plate pregame tonight, with my newbies right there, I'm telling every coach that if I see a runner intentionally run over a fielder, even if that fielder is in the way, the runner can be called out and he and the coach are probably gone; and if that's the chance they want to take on getting an OBS, so be it. I'll also warn that the fielders need to try to stay out of the way. What would YOU do?

EXACTLY! A hundred a times a least that day I thought, "Screw it! I'm movin' it!" But I didn't. I shoulda'... It was really my call, not the TD's. Of course, every team that lost that day would've gone ape feces, but that wouldn't have been my problem. A pitcher taking a head shot would have been.

As PU: With two out, R3 is (probably) taking off on contact so as PU I'm going to quickly fade left and be ready for any chaos since I can't assume the F6 is going to throw to first. In my line of sight, the runner is going by and I'll cover the touch at the plate and eyeball for any obstruction that may occur, and in my periphery I'll probably see F6 making the throw. After the runner crosses home, then I'm going to move my eyes to first to observe as I walk in and to the right. The play at 1st will (probably) happen AFTER my touch at home because of the actual distance the runners are covering. Just because the play at 1B isn't my "responsibility" doesn't mean that I won't watch the conclusion of the play, so I do. From where I am at this point, maybe I could see a foot pull or maybe I couldn't. But if asked by my partner what I saw, at least I could say. As BU: If in that first split second I really couldn't tell, I'm running to the base while watching F8's foot since my eyes were already on the base anyway. As I get an angle, I'm watching that foot... watching... if moves back towards OR away from the bag it's easy enough to establish where it was and make the call. If I still can't tell or if I feel I'm taking too long, I make the call and wait for the noise from the coach. If there's noise, I call time, call my partner over and ask him what he saw. In response to the OP, yes I would make the call then ask for help, but I'd PROBABLY wait the for the noise. The bigger the doubt, the less noise it would take. From *PING* to the call only took 5 seconds... 10 more seconds to check with my partner if needed. A lifetime of knowing I got it right. None of the above is in any book. But I do know that the most important call to make is the right one. Refusing to ask for help, like some mentioned, if asked on a play like that, ESPECIALLY if I had doubts, IMHO is just plain wrong and bordering on prideful, arrogant, and maybe just a little ignorant of my role within the game. (Apologies if you're insulted.) Now if I KNOW I got right, I'll just say "Coach, I had clear view and his foot was off!" If he still persists on my asking for help, I may or I may not. That'll be a HTBT. Nowadays in the modern age of officiating as a player, coach, and official, it's refreshing to see officials in any sport huddle up and talk it out a little. Usually they'll end up getting it right, sometimes not, but at least they made the effort to put the "good of the game" above themselves and try.

Thanks for the input guys! Yeah, the liability factor DEFINITELY crossed my mind. After I saw the mound was short and realizing it had been like that for 4 previous games, I casually walked over to my partner and quietly told him what was up. I saw the TD nearby and I waved him over. I told him about the mound through the fence and he asked if I was sure. I nodded and he asked if I had told the coaches yet. When I told him no, he told me to stall things for a minute and he would be right back. He talked on his phone for a couple of minutes and it wasn't a big delay since we had to wait for the catcher anyway. He comes back over to the fence and said, "Leave it and don't tell the coaches. The grounds crew messed up, but it's been like that all day and I don't need the problems. If one of the coaches notices, we'll handle it then." I asked him if he was sure. "Leave it!" he ordered and walked off. I looked at my partner and confirmed that he had heard that, then I trotted off to "A". Now it is HIS tournament... but it's MY field. But now I had a tough choice. Roll with it, or do what I (on hindsight) should have done and either corrected it on the spot or at the latest at the bottom of the inning. Of course, there would've been MAJOR problems with the fix because like I said, it had been like that for 4 previous games, including 2 "win-or-go-home" games. I ended up doing as he asked. The rest of the day passed with no problems, but for some strange reason, all of the pitchers seemed a little off that day... This is one those that has and will always stick with me... Coulda' Shoulda' Woulda'...

Not really about paying attention, and not really that silly to me, but I understand your point. Had a smaller kid two summers ago on deck and was timing his swing to the pitch as they all do. As he swung, so did the batter and a screamer line drive off the end of the bat blasted the ODB right square in the sensitive man area. I was behind the plate and I barely saw the ball it was moving so fast, but I heard the "SPLAT". The force of the ball actually lifted the kid off the ground and knocked him back into the fence. He never had a chance to get out of the way and for a few seconds after he was motionless. Fortunately, he was the catcher so he had a cup on, but he didn't get up for a few minutes and he wasn't quite right for the rest of the game, or even a few games after. A few years ago on the same field, I had a facial/jaw shot also on a on-deck batter timing his swing. On this field and all in the complex, it's about 15' from foul line to fence and 30' from plate to ODC. I understand why the rule is there, but perhaps it'll eventually be one of those "if both coaches agree" type of things, which is what our City League does now and it's basically understood. The coaches think it's a great idea and some have even said that they wish other places would do it. There's a lot of things in baseball I haven't seen either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Don't really care for them, but I guess they're a necessary evil in today's multi-purpose complex world. Fake plastic grass on a flat top trampoline of rubber protruding pieces of sh... anyway... I'm just looking for a little input on a couple of situations I've come across. Last night, I was PU of the second of game of 3 on my field (1st as PU that night). The first batter of the game, RH, walked on 4 straight outside pitches. After the third pitch to the second batter, I noticed that the mound was crooked. It was angled just a little, front edges towards 1B foul line by about 3 inches. I guess in theory this could cause a pitcher to throw outside. I decided to wait until after the bottom half of the inning to fix it, but I didn't tell the coaches until after the bottom half was completed. The first pitcher walked one more, and the bottom half pitcher walked two. Indeed, most of the pitches were outside or outer half of the plate. Nobody scored. Would you have fixed it sooner and when would you have told the coaches? I thought by telling them sooner or fixing it I could get into a "competitive advantage" type of situation... Last year, it was similar but worse when I had the afternoon session of a tournament and in my first game I was the BU. As I trotted out and I was scanning the field, something looked a little off. The pitcher, a good one whom I had seen pitch a lot that season, was throwing an unusual amount of high pitches. The visitors were strokin', and drawing walks on high pitches, and scored 5 runs. At the half inning, I was passing by the mound and saw that it looked, well, strange. I stared down and saw the almost buried fabric markers where the mound SHOULD have been... it was almost 3 feet in front of the markers (54'). The p.m. session had games involving teams that had played on that field in the morning on the short mound. What would you do? They've been playing on it all day AND the game has started. I'm going to leave you hangin' on what we ended up doing until a little later. YES!! I know I should have done a better job on confirming the field as "ready for play", but I've kicked myself enough already for that... It is now part of my pre-game to check the mound before EVERY game and every couple of innings at least. Those suckers slide around! DO fell free to kick some more though.

Yeah, we're going to weed out the LL's so that's not a problem. And yes, we're going to have quite a few "Balk or Not?" type of questions. THANK YOU!!

Absolutely instinctive -------- Immediate dead ball -- Runner that got struck by the fair batted ball: OUT -- BR gets first -- Runner that was on 2nd stays at 2nd. What they ended up with was runner scoring from 2nd, NO outs being called and runners on 1B & 3B... and a purple faced Umpire-in-Chief.

Best of Best to you! I'm also in SW Mo here in Springfield, and if you want softball, you're in the right place & part of the state! Just hustle and have fun!! ... and try to remember every bad umpire you ever saw work your daughter's games, then DON'T do whatever they did! Remember the goods ones, and you'll be fine.

I know I'm late on this one, but yeah, GREAT CALL!! I think the wording in the books is that the batter shall do nothing... NOTHING that obstructs, hinders, distracts, or interferes (3 out of 4 of those at least). Watch the MLB batters.... they just freeze and stand there just as they've been coached in the minors. Of course, I hear it from the dugout, "Hey Blue, he's entitled to the box!" (Where does THAT come from?!) But "intent" has nothing to do with it, and of course, neither does the ball or catcher's arm touching the batter or bat. It's simply did the batter do SOMETHING, even ducking, that screwed up the throw. If he has a good, coach, batter becomes a statue. Natural swings are OK! Entitled to the box... sheesh!

Thanks DIX!! I did Google up a few things beyond what I had, but this is GREAT stuff!

Sad stuff last night... Got back to the changing shed after my last game and the City UIC is waiting there with the Complex Director and they look pretty, well, angry... but thank goodness they weren't mad at me. I had heard some yelling from another field earlier and I was about to find out why. A couple of our what are supposed to be better umpires totally kicked one of the most basic of rules last night. 13U. R1, R2 (1st & 2nd), 1 out. Batter hits a grounder in the hole between 1B & 2B and the ball hits the runner going from first before it passed a fielder. Yeah, I know and you know but they blew it. Ball caroms off into CF, and it ends up with runners on 2nd & 3rd. No call! Later, in the inning, both runners score and they win by a run. The one that insisted he was right said that he thought that was the rule or something like that and the other just went along with it... So, as the "Senior Umpire" in the "City League", my Chief is going to allow me to give all the umpires, new & old, an open-book test. What I'm asking from you is: 1) A Test. 50 broad ranging game-situation type questions on OBR (with USSSA add-ons if desired). If you have a link to one that fully or partially exists, post it here. 2) An OBR question or few w/ answer choices that could be included on a test with the citation from OBR. Feel free to be tricky! 3) An opinion of what we should do with these two, now fully chewed out, umpires. 6 yr old coach pitch, any one? The questions should be ones that any basic umpire working under OBR SHOULD KNOW, so yeah, come up with some doozies as well as blatantly obvious. Multi-choice and T or F are just fine. After I put it together, I'll post the finished product here with what I hope are the correct triple-checked answers for any discussion. I've already come up with and found quite a few, but I'd be remiss if I didn't hit you Blues up for more! So, let the testing begin... And many thanks for the assistance in advance. And I'm going near the subject of why did we wait til now for a test. I've been begging for it for years! (Yeah, some of the "40 Myths" from my sig below WILL be on it)

I appreiciate all of the input. And of course, just last night in a 13U, my partner in the "C" got his forearm up just in time on a hard one hopper that was absolutely crushed on the screws off an old composite bat. It was heading right at his forehead and for a split second, the "smack" sounded just like a melon shot. Scared the living fecals out of me.... AND him. The bruise on his arm looks like a baseball is growing inside. He said he never had a chance to move. Some on this thread, in one way or another, have mentioned that this may be a "what will it take?" kind of thing, while others are leaning "looks and fashion over safety". Right now, I'm leaning towards making the buy of a MLB base-coach style helmet. The only question is navy blue ( same color as hat) or basic black. The "finish" is pretty irrelevant (Never heard: "Hey blue! Can you make that runner on 2nd change his helmet?!"). If I do, I'll pass along my input. Long ago, there were no shin guards, chest protectors, or face masks either... Honestly, I don't think it'll be that much longer before something horrible happens to one of us and eventually becomes part of an upper-level umpire's standard gear.

About 4 years ago as the BU in a 14U, I was my usual B spot with a runner on. The batter hit what is still, to me, the hardest, fastest line drive I've ever seen (off a fastball pitcher w/ a now illegal composite bat) right at my head. I leaned and ducked right, but the ball said, "Target acquired!" and actually started to curve. The round cruise missle grazed my head just behind my right ear and the stars came out. In the static, I heard my partner call the dead ball, as I sat there taking inventory. I got left with a lump and a slight headache for a day or two, but I was OK. My chief in the stands and my partner both agreed that the ball had it in for me and when that happens, you just get drilled an move on. I didn't become gun shy, but it got me thinking... especially after that minor league coach got killed and MLB mandated coaches helmets. Last night, I had at least 5 near misses in the same game and it got me thinking again, especially with all of the new emphasis at all levels of all sports regarding head injuries... I'm considering buying a helmet (saw a couple of nice ones on the web) for use when I'm the BU, especially with the upper ages & HS. But, so far, it looks like I might be the only umpire on the planet wearing one. So... have you tried one or have you considered it? And do you know of any other umpires that are using one? Have any associations or leagues thought about mandating helmets for coaches and/or umpires? And flashing back to a little of the pants thread, would you look down your nose at an umpire wearing a helmet, and do you think a state association or league would say, "No helmet for Blue!"? One side of me says "Better safe than sorry and Better live than dead!", while the other side says, "C'mon Blue, MAN UP!" Right now, I'm leaning towards at least giving it a try, or of course wait for another ball with a grudge to find me. (BTW, that line drive was only the second time in 26 years that I've been hit as a BU in fair territory and only the 5th time overall, so it's not because I'm lazy or slow, and the first time ever in the head. It just got me thinking...)

I see... Last Saturday, we had a 3-3 tie going into the last inning (5th due to time limit), and even though I had covered the tie rule & 1/2 game split in the plate pre-game, I called out loud enough for the county to hear: "Last inning! If it ends in a tie, we're done and each team gets a half-game!!" I'll do the same at a half-inning or even mid-inning if a tie is likely so the all of the uninformed within earshot know what's up. Right away, everybody knows what can happen... especially since the rules are printed and distributed to all parents doesn't mean they will actually read them. PERHAPS, if you or the partner had hollered what the ruling could be on a winner even some time during the inning, it might have helped? Honestly, if I were a fan and found out at the end that a win/loss was being awarded by rule, I'd go slightly ape-feces too, but I wouldn't chase you down!

First, WOW! That sucks about the the morons following you out. Here, they would've gotten a fat citation or two from the cops by ordinance. As far as to how I would've handled this if I were you? With a (declared) win/loss on the line, I might, MIGHT have brought the Tournament Director and/or coaches in on it and asked them what their understanding of their rules were on this since most tournaments have something in place just for this situation. Surely, they've had ties before. Best case scenario is to keep playing, sad case is to call tie and end it, absolute worst case is what happened to you. I also would have to have a pow-wow with that partner when I saw him again, and sternly ask him to show you the rule that states a doubleheader game not called due to weather can't end in a tie after 7-innings and a winner has to be declared.... or something like that. I hate to say it, but it looks like he may have been way off on this one. When I have a tournament or a league that's new to me, I will do my best to check to see what their special rules are, especially ties and if I get free hot dogs. Not checking before or double-checking after sit the only "screw-up" I see. Lastly, WOW!

BRD and J/R are your friends here. "Coach, there are 128 differences between HS and pro rules, and you just learned one of them. 127 to go. Let's play" ...and yes I MEANT to say, "In OBR it's play on if batters foot touches the plate AND part of the same foot is still in the box." 127 to go!!

aka Springfield, Missouri and I've been umpiring for 26 years. Over the past few years, I've been working a combination of Youth & HS leagues which means on one night it's pure FED, then the next it's all OBR, then another it's USSSA or a strange league adaptation of both. The hard part comes with one league I have that has HS teams and coaches (freshmen), but we use OBR and USSSA rules... yes confusion can reign! It's a bit of a challenge to keep all of the differences straight, to say the least. But I manage. As time moves, I look forward to bouncing situations and interpretations off of the forum!

@Rich: No. Not "clueless". And my "feel" is pretty good after 26 years of wearing blue. No need to for that, Rich. It wasn't my situation. Regarding the first base scenario, I saw it happen just like that in a tournament game three years ago. The rather senior umpire did a no-call/nothing as both coaches began screaming at their respective players to either get back or touch the base/tag him (I was chillin' in the press box). F3 started to chase the runner, then turned and beat the runner back to the bag in a bang-bang. Nobody on the defense said anything about an appeal, but he was still out for out #3. Meanwhile the runner that was on 3rd scored during the melee. The reason this came to mind was the ensuing brouhaha over whether or not the run counted, but that's another thread for another day. (If someone likes, I'll write it up!) Back to the OP, he's out.

But is there not a little difference between OBR and FED on WHERE the foot is? If the batter steps on the plate at contact, but his heel is still on the line of the box (possible with a big foot) he's not "completely out" of the box. In FED (7-3-2) if you step on the plate at contact, out. In OBR it's play on. I get the privilege of working a city league with HS players and coaches, but we use OBR rules... This is a BIG diff that pops up every couple of weeks. Especially a couple of nights later when the same thing happens in a HS Rules game, with the same team and coaches. They're catching on...

First, MANY thanks sdix00 for the citations. I don't have the MLBUM sources, but that's not a biggie. Maybe the part of OP that got me was the "by chance standing on the bag". Perhaps I would wonder how an infielder would take a throw from the OF and accidentally be standing on the bag. I was aware of the "unmistakably" comment... however in many games worked and viewed, this seems to be the judgment of the umpire. We've all seen the infielder catch the ball on the relay from the outfield and just casually trot and lazy step on the base on the way to the dugout for the third out (1 out R1 took off on the pitch, deep fly and he's now past third). How do I know that he doesn't step on the base as his little "thing" that he does after every half-inning or if this is "unmistakable"? We all call the out and move on. From the OP above, I still believe I'd immediately call an out especially since he's standing on the bag. To me this would show everything I need. Now if F6 is just off the base and as he turns to throw to F1 he steps on the base, then I would not have an out and I'd be ready to explain to their coach as to why. The key here to me is that F6 was standing on 2B and that's hard to do by accident. I would not expect him to stand there and yell out, "I'm appealing!" though I've had it happen. SO, IMHO, I'd call an out. The fact that the F6 was standing on the base as he took the throw would've been enough, but perhaps I would take into consideration how long he held the ball; did he catch and then look at me expecting a verdict?; does he then step off and throw it F1 as if nothing happened? "--------------------------MLBUM 2010 34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings (12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment. ------------------------------" Is this 34 the same in FED? Can't actually recall it happening to me, but now of course it will tonight!

I've been, perhaps unnecessarily, mulling this one over since I first read the OP and reply. Over the weekend, it was a similar sitch when R1 running with the pitch missed 2nd as F4 made a dive on the ground ball up the middle, as the runner was coming back, F4 made the tag for the out. Immediately, the question popped up in my head, "What it F4 had stepped on 2nd before the runner returned?" Then I remembered skimming through this post last week and the mulling which ensued... Based on the OP, IMHO, this would be a live ball appeal situation and the runner was out when F6 caught it on the base. I'm staring at p. 46 of Fed, 8-2-5, Penalty: "A live-ball appeal may be may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early." A full blown dead-ball appeal can be made too, but I'm not sure how if the runner came back to stand on the 2B. (In this situation, it's similar what would be called if a runner left a base too soon on a caught pop fly... the fielder just steps on the base before the runner can return, which we all know is actually a live ball appeal.) In OBR, I'm looking at 7.10-(B): The runners is out when... "With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged." Technically a live ball appeal for missing a base. Untechnically, the fielder touched the base before the runner forced to advance did. Regardless, I would've punched him out on the spot. If I call R1 safe, I should be prepared for a coach in my grill. Coach is gonna have his rulebook on p.46. What am I gonna have? Also in the first reply, isn't the force only removed if the runner touches the base? In the OP, and based on the rules I quoted, it could've been a DP if F6 had thrown thrown to F3 in time, right? SO what do you think... in this situation was R1 out? I say yes. If you think safe, please cite the rule(s).