Scoring/rule question...

[jtech1]

Runner on first.  Batter hits slow chopper to short.  SS bobbles ball, looks to second, sees no play, throws to first... runner is already a few feet past the bag when throw gets there and is clearly safe.  Even if there was no bobble, the runner had high likelihood of being safe at second since he was running on the pitch and is fast.

I asked a spectator who is one of the best umpires I know and he said he would score it as a hit... but as I go over the rules, I am, wondering if that was correct.  Did I score this correctly?  With no bobble he might have thrown to second... and out or safe, it would have been a fielder's choice then.  But he did not throw to second... so is it a hit, as a judgement call that the runner would have been safe at first due to the choice of looking to second and not throwing there?  Or would you always assume the bobble caused the loss of play at second and later throw to first so score as error regardless of any other timing judgement calls?  Is there a clear answer above, or does judgement come in anywhere?

I appreciate any feedback!

[Velho]

Thanks for coming to ask the question @jtech1. Truth be told, umpires don't generally focus on the scorekeeping aspect (we do have some folks on the site that will chime in though).

I can say that yes judgment is a factor in scoring a hit or error.

 @ThomHinton may be able to provide an answer as well.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, jtech1 said:

I asked a spectator who is one of the best umpires I know and he said he would score it as a hit.

This is irrelevant - you need to talk to a spectator who is one of the best scorekeepers you know.

12 hours ago, jtech1 said:

With no bobble he might have thrown to second... and out or safe, it would have been a fielder's choice then.  But he did not throw to second... so is it a hit, as a judgement call that the runner would have been safe at first due to the choice of looking to second and not throwing there? 

Yes, scorekeeping is judgment on hits, errors, sac bunts, etc.   This is why advanced sabrmetrics have become more important - they reduce the impact of a scorekeeper's judgment, which surprisingly can make quite the difference to batting average, ERA and even RBI counts over the course of a season.

For your play in question.

1. Would R1 have reached second without the bobble?

2. Would BR have reached first without the bobble?  (pretend there was no R1 at all)

If so, it's a hit.

You say if there was no bobble, F6 would have thrown to second, and it "out or safe" would be a fielder's choice....not necessarily.  Yes, if R1 was retired it would be FC.   But if R1 beat the throw then the same judgment applies for BR.  Would BR have beaten the throw if F6 threw to first instead of second?    If so, it's a hit. And to help you with your judgment, use F6's decision...in your non-bobble hypothetical he threw to second because he believed that was his best/only shot. 

If, in the OP, you determine that if F6 had fielded the ball cleanly he would have got either one of the runners, then it's an error.  If not, it's a hit.

It sounds like a hit to me.

 

If it's really close, give the benefit of the doubt to the hitter...unless your kid is pitching.

 

[ThomHinton]

Absolutely Beerguy55 has given you the best answer. The only thing I might add is that the Official Scorer must be absolutely certain that the out would have been made at 2nd base. Not probably, not most likely, but a certainty.

 

 

"If you think you've seen it all, come to a minor league baseball game."