clueless coaches

[TXUmp77]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

[Rich Ives]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

[mtnump]

It is amazing how creative they can be if they don't take the time to know the rule.

[Mr Umpire]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

I understand how you feel Rich since you are strongly attached to the coach side. But, the coaches are not blameless. You didn't learn the rules by accident. I'm sure you have made more effort to learn them than someone just handing you a rules clinic. No one twisted your arm to come onto forums and learn.

And, it isn't a well kept secret or even attempted to be. So, I think this should be directed more towards the coaches not taking the time to learn what they are teaching. Who is more dangerous: an umpire knowing the rule and not teaching or a coach not bothering to learn the rules of what they teach? It is equivalent to a teacher walking into class not knowing the first thing about what they are teaching. That is where the problem truly lies. The learning material is everywhere to be found.

[zm1283]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I've had a D2 catcher this spring do the same thing after a runner advanced on a foul tip. I had to have a short rules lesson for him.

[Rich Ives]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

I understand how you feel Rich since you are strongly attached to the coach side. But, the coaches are not blameless. You didn't learn the rules by accident. I'm sure you have made more effort to learn them than someone just handing you a rules clinic. No one twisted your arm to come onto forums and learn.

And, it isn't a well kept secret or even attempted to be. So, I think this should be directed more towards the coaches not taking the time to learn what they are teaching. Who is more dangerous: an umpire knowing the rule and not teaching or a coach not bothering to learn the rules of what they teach? It is equivalent to a teacher walking into class not knowing the first thing about what they are teaching. That is where the problem truly lies. The learning material is everywhere to be found.

Saying "not my job - he needs to learn it himself" isn't a very good aproach when dealing with transient volunteer coaching staffs like you get in youth rec leagues. Maybe with coaches that get paid - but not most places.

At our LL we do a few things to educate both the coaches and fans.

1) We have a number of rules-related things on our web site - like the 40 myths, a fair/foul quiz, etc.

2) We print copies and include it in the manager's binder that is set up for each team

3) We post a copy of all the stuff by the concession stand (waterproof paper - laminated). It gets read a lot.

4) We publish a League Handbook that includes all the "how we do things" info.

5) I've been around so long that "everyone" knows who to see with questions.

6) I make sure the UIC has a copy of the latest RIM.

And - surprise - we have very few rules related problems.

And, once set up, it takes very little maintenance. But "Joe Coach" can't do it. It needs to be done by someone "in the know". That's usually an umpire.

OTOH - last year our Varsity coach saw me at the park and complained that in is game earlier that day the umpire had called a kid out of order because the jersey number was wrong - and neither our coach nor the opposing coach could convince him he was wrong.

[Dragon29]

Saying "not my job - he needs to learn it himself" isn't a very good aproach when dealing with transient volunteer coaching staffs like you get in youth rec leagues. Maybe with coaches that get paid - but not most places.

At our LL we do a few things to educate both the coaches and fans.

1) We have a number of rules-related things on our web site - like the 40 myths, a fair/foul quiz, etc.

2) We print copies and include it in the manager's binder that is set up for each team

3) We post a copy of all the stuff by the concession stand (waterproof paper - laminated). It gets read a lot.

4) We publish a League Handbook that includes all the "how we do things" info.

5) I've been around so long that "everyone" knows who to see with questions.

6) I make sure the UIC has a copy of the latest RIM.

And - surprise - we have very few rules related problems.

And, once set up, it takes very little maintenance. But "Joe Coach" can't do it. It needs to be done by someone "in the know". That's usually an umpire.

OTOH - last year our Varsity coach saw me at the park and complained that in is game earlier that day the umpire had called a kid out of order because the jersey number was wrong - and neither our coach nor the opposing coach could convince him he was wrong.

Rich - You have coaches in your league that read? I didn't even know they could!

Seriously, what you provide for them and how you present it is great; being a former UIC, I can tell you I did all of that (& more! Each season I attended two pre-season Coaches meetings specifically to go over the more obscure rules, answer their questions and give a primer on how best to handle a dispute on the field) and what I found was that the coaches who really need it are the ones who ignore it, and the ones who make good use of it are the kinds of guys who would go out to get that information on their own anyway. They appreciate your help, but . . .

You can lead a coach to the rules; you can't make him think.

[spiritump]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

Why is it the umpires job to teach the coach???????please I would like to know why you think that way---it is not our job to coach/teach--our job is to umpire.

[Rich Ives]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

Why is it the umpires job to teach the coach???????please I would like to know why you think that way---it is not our job to coach/teach--our job is to umpire.

Lets see - because someone with the knowledge should do the teaching? Gee - doesn't that make sense?

Do we expect our kids to be taught by persons with the knowledge or do we just toss them the textbook and, with no assistance, expect them to learn the subjects. "OK folks, we'll be landing as soon as I finish reading the "how to land" chapter".

Did your boss or an experienced collegue train you at work or did you just get handed an instruction book? 'What does it mean "dial the phone". There's no dial on it."

Or maybe it just makes you feel good to know you can lord something over the hapless coach.

[jjb]

Rich's this-side-of-flaming -comments notwithstanding , let's look at it another way. How many times have you heard coaches arguing among themselves what a particular rule is, and not dragging you into the conversation? Not very often: they're usually tring to convince you about some coackamamie thing they heard in a sandlot somewhere. So, you can either try and teach them the proper rule, at the beginning of the season or you can ignore them and hear the same nonsense until mid-June. It's kinda easier that way.

[Rich Ives]

Rich's this-side-of-flaming -comments notwithstanding , let's look at it another way. How many times have you heard coaches arguing among themselves what a particular rule is, and not dragging you into the conversation? Not very often: they're usually tring to convince you about some coackamamie thing they heard in a sandlot somewhere. So, you can either try and teach them the proper rule, at the beginning of the season or you can ignore them and hear the same nonsense until mid-June. It's kinda easier that way.

When they drag me into the conversation it's to find out what the correct rule is and they do it because they know I know and they listen and learn.

Be their mentor, not their nemesis.

[Dragon29]

Rich - I couldn't agree more.

Some of my favorite (off the field!) conversations are with coaches asking about particular rules or rule interpretations. First, I feel like they're trying to learn and second, it is interesting to se just how wrong they usually are when they start.

Also strengthens my relationship with them during games. You get the, "I know this guy; he's good." co-operative attitude from most of 'em.

[spiritump]

Players also i had two things happen tonight that just made me shake me head, had a R1 stealing batter tipped ball to catcher who threw to 2nd runner was safe. I made the signal for foul tip and catcher turns to me and says "didnt he tip that" i said "yes i called it a strike" he said "well shouldnt runner go back to first". he couldnt understand the difference in foul tip and foul ball. Then coach comes out and asks and he didnt understand either. Really quite disturbing this is JR/SR LL. Then i had a R3 leaving early on a fly to F8 and his coaches made him to the mound and step off and all that with a live ball. Couldnt understand why he didnt just go tag base. Why coaches still think with live ball you have to go to mound.

So how much rules training have you offered to do for the coaches?

Why is it the umpires job to teach the coach???????please I would like to know why you think that way---it is not our job to coach/teach--our job is to umpire.

Lets see - because someone with the knowledge should do the teaching? Gee - doesn't that make sense?

Do we expect our kids to be taught by persons with the knowledge or do we just toss them the textbook and, with no assistance, expect them to learn the subjects. "OK folks, we'll be landing as soon as I finish reading the "how to land" chapter".

Did your boss or an experienced collegue train you at work or did you just get handed an instruction book? 'What does it mean "dial the phone". There's no dial on it."

Or maybe it just makes you feel good to know you can lord something over the hapless coach.

Not at all--the coach is not asking for my help --he is out on the field arguing rules--the moment a coach comes out it is because he/she thinks the ump is wrong--that is why they come out; not to learn--and then when you tell them the rule 8 out of 10 times the argue that you are wrong. And why do you call them hapless coaches because you think you know more than them.

[mstaylor]

I try to teach coaches whenever possible, on the field or off, but some just refuse to believe we actually know the rule. I will stand and talk rules with players, coaches or umpires for hours if they are interested in learning. I teach few coaches clinics any longer because of poor attendance or unwillingness to let the clinics be more than a hour or two.