MC v. OBS

[BRUMP]

During one of my games this afternoon, I had a situation that was unclear and I was unsure of. R2 outs don't matter. I am BU. Base hit to lf. Runner rounds third and he is blocked by the F5. I call the OBS but since it is type B ball is still live. As the runner gets up from the collision and heads home he lowers his shoulder and plows the F2. MC he is out and gone. So my partner and I ruled that the mc overruled the OBS and the out stood. I think we got it right. What rule if any touches on this? Btw it was OBR.

[cyclonehokiece]

I know in FED that MC supersedes OBS by specific rule, but I am not sure there is any specific language in OBR since MC isn't in it. But I believe you handled it correctly.

[basejester]

Can you give us a little more information on the ruleset? I mean, straight OBR doesn't have a MC rule, right?

[BRUMP]

Can you give us a little more information on the ruleset? I mean, straight OBR doesn't have a MC rule, right?

OBR with modifications including mc rule. Sorry should've included that in op.

[Rich Ives]

The modifications should specify the penalty.

OBR - award the OBS and then you may eject for UC - no out. Same in LL.

NCAA penalty is situation dependent.

[basejester]

I'm assuming you would have awarded home without the malicious contact.

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(B) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no

further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time†and impose such

penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

---

So, the reasonable question is, if the umpire judges that the malicious contact situation would not have occurred without the F5 obstruction, should he vacate the malicious contact penalty as part of nullifying the obstruction?

I'd say no and get the out like you did, but the exact language of the malicious contact rule might change my mind.

[basejester]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

[BRUMP]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

I believe the top part only applies to OBS at home plate. If the OBS is at 3rd then what?

[Rich Ives]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

I believe the top part only applies to OBS at home plate. If the OBS is at 3rd then what?

Sometimes you have to derive an answer because one cannot list all possibilities. SO: If it's proper to score the run (award home) then it's proper to award a base.

[Dannytheman]

As I see it, you already approved him for home on OBS? Is that correct?

So runs scores and on OBS and eject on Unsportmanlike conduct, no out. All I see is Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

[BRUMP]

As I see it, you already approved him for home on OBS? Is that correct?

So runs scores and on OBS and eject on Unsportmanlike conduct, no out. All I see is Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

You could make the same argument for the MC. MC is an automatic out. And OBS is an automatic one vase award. Not saying your wrong just playing devils advocate.

[Rich Ives]

As I see it, you already approved him for home on OBS? Is that correct?

So runs scores and on OBS and eject on Unsportmanlike conduct, no out. All I see is Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

You could make the same argument for the MC. MC is an automatic out. And OBS is an automatic one vase award. Not saying your wrong just playing devils advocate.

The only problem here is that UC (what you'd have to use for MC) is not an automatic out in OBR/LL.

In NCAA if you score and then MC the fielder the run counts and you're ejected.

[basejester]

You could make the same argument for the MC. MC is an automatic out. And OBS is an automatic one vase award. Not saying your wrong just playing devils advocate.

It's not an automatic base award with type B OBS under OBR. Without the MC, would you have awarded home to the runner based on your judgement?

[basejester]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

I believe the top part only applies to OBS at home plate. If the OBS is at 3rd then what?

The LL rule itself doesn't treat home differently than any other base. When I wrote above that you would have a run, I was applying it to the situation in the OP.

If you weren't going to award home based on OBS, then it's easy. The OBS at 3b is irrelevant and you resolve the play at the plate.

If you were going to award home based on OBS at 3b, then I don't think the rules are clear on whether you should apply the penalty for OBS or the out penalty in 7.08 first.

[Rich Ives]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

I believe the top part only applies to OBS at home plate. If the OBS is at 3rd then what?

The LL rule itself doesn't treat home differently than any other base. When I wrote above that you would have a run, I was applying it to the situation in the OP.

If you weren't going to award home based on OBS, then it's easy. The OBS at 3b is irrelevant and you resolve the play at the plate.

If you were going to award home based on OBS at 3b, then I don't think the rules are clear on whether you should apply the penalty for OBS or the out penalty in 7.08 first.

You can still award 3B.

And what out penalty in 7.08? There is NO out penalty in OBR/LL for UC/MC.

[basejester]

You can still award 3B.

Well, OK. In this example, the runner already reached 3B, so I don't know what awarding it to him matters.

And what out penalty in 7.08? There is NO out penalty in OBR/LL for UC/MC.

Agreed, there is no MC, but there is this, which may or may not apply to the play at the plate in this case.

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Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -

(a) (3) the runner does not slide OR attempt to get around a fielder who HAS THE BALL and is waiting to make the tag.

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If 7.08(a)(3) doesn't apply, then you probably have OBS again at the plate.

[BRUMP]

In Little League, if you have obstruction (e.g., when the runner beats the ball) and unsportsmanlike conduct, you have a run and an ejection (no out).

If the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make a tag and the runner plows the fielder, you have an out under 7.08 (a)(3) and an ejection.

I believe the top part only applies to OBS at home plate. If the OBS is at 3rd then what?

If you were going to award home based on OBS at 3b, then I don't think the rules are clear on whether you should apply the penalty for OBS or the out penalty in 7.08 first.

Yes that is what happened. I would have awarded home. Me and my partner were unsure but though that there was no specific rule and the runner lost all sympathy/benefit of the doubt when he trucked the catcher.

[Rich Ives]

You can still award 3B.

Well, OK. In this example, the runner already reached 3B, so I don't know what awarding it to him matters.

And what out penalty in 7.08? There is NO out penalty in OBR/LL for UC/MC.

Agreed, there is no MC, but there is this, which may or may not apply to the play at the plate in this case.

------------

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -

(a) (3) the runner does not slide OR attempt to get around a fielder who HAS THE BALL and is waiting to make the tag.

------------

If 7.08(a)(3) doesn't apply, then you probably have OBS again at the plate.

The OP said it was OBR. The 7.08(a)(3) you quoted is just a LL rule. It's not part of OBR or any other youth league rules.

And even in LL he doesn't have to succeed in getting around - just attempt to (and hurdling is legal in LL in case anyone asks). If the runner steps to the side and the fielder moves with him the runner has met his obligation and cannot be called out for a violation.

AND - in ALL rule sets if the fielder has the ball he cannot no way no how obstruct the runner.

[basejester]

The OP said it was OBR. The 7.08(a)(3) you quoted is just a LL rule. It's not part of OBR or any other youth league rules.

I understand that. This whole part of the discussion, starting with your statement of "Same in LL", was about how it would be judged under LL rules.

And even in LL he doesn't have to succeed in getting around - just attempt to (and hurdling is legal in LL in case anyone asks). If the runner steps to the side and the fielder moves with him the runner has met his obligation and cannot be called out for a violation.

AND - in ALL rule sets if the fielder has the ball he cannot no way no how obstruct the runner.

As general statements, sure.

On this particular play, where the the OP judged malicious contact, then I don't think we could judge the runner's actions as an attempt to get around the fielder.

[Rich Ives]

The OP said it was OBR. The 7.08(a)(3) you quoted is just a LL rule. It's not part of OBR or any other youth league rules.

I understand that. This whole part of the discussion, starting with your statement of "Same in LL", was about how it would be judged under LL rules.

And even in LL he doesn't have to succeed in getting around - just attempt to (and hurdling is legal in LL in case anyone asks). If the runner steps to the side and the fielder moves with him the runner has met his obligation and cannot be called out for a violation.

AND - in ALL rule sets if the fielder has the ball he cannot no way no how obstruct the runner.

As general statements, sure.

On this particular play, where the the OP judged malicious contact, then I don't think we could judge the runner's actions as an attempt to get around the fielder.

Of course you can. Runner attempts to go around. Fielder jumps into his path. Runner gets POed and forearms him. Legal attempot. UC.

AND - the OP says OBR, not LL, so 7.08(a)(3) does NOT apply.

[basejester]

Of course you can. Runner attempts to go around. Fielder jumps into his path. Runner gets POed and forearms him. Legal attempot. UC.

The fielder is supposed to jump into his path to make a tag. He's doing the right thing.

In my opinion, the "attempt to get around a fielder" requirement cannot be satisfied by a discrete action and then checked off the list.

The contact cannot be both unintentional and malicious. If the contact is intentional, the runnner isn't making an attempt to get around.

If we judge any effort to deviate from the original course as "an attempt to get around the fielder", then there will be many opportunities for runners to legally truck fielders, which is what the rule intends to prevent.

[Rich Ives]

Of course you can. Runner attempts to go around. Fielder jumps into his path. Runner gets POed and forearms him. Legal attempot. UC.

The fielder is supposed to jump into his path to make a tag. He's doing the right thing.

In my opinion, the "attempt to get around a fielder" requirement cannot be satisfied by a discrete action and then checked off the list.

The contact cannot be both unintentional and malicious. If the contact is intentional, the runnner isn't making an attempt to get around.

If we judge any effort to deviate from the original course as "an attempt to get around the fielder", then there will be many opportunities for runners to legally truck fielders, which is what the rule intends to prevent.

Believe what you wish. Have a nice day.