Dead Ball

[mstaylor]

This is moved from the Eteamz board but I thought it was a good question so I reposted it. Rich responded over there so maybe he and I can let some others take their shots at it.

Time of Throw, or...

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Had an interesting play in a girls ASA tournament last weekend, and wanted to get your take from an OBR (or FED) perspective.

R1. Batter hits the ball up the middle, and R1 tries to go to third on the single. F8's throw to F5 is there ahead of the runner, but short-hops F5, and the ball ends up on the ground in R1's path. F5 actually thinks the ball got by her, and turns to chase it as R1 slides into third. R1 inadvertently kicks the ball during her slide, and the ball rolls into the third-base dugout.

Now, at the time of the throw from F8, we guessed that the BR had not achieved first base since she hit it pretty hard. So the question was, Where do we put the BR? Does she only get two bases from the throw, which would put her on second? Or does the award take place from when R1 pushed the ball into DBT, since the ball would not have gone out of play without the impetus, and put the BR on third?

[jnazz]

without digging into a manual, I would say tot

[mstaylor]

I will let others answer before I say anything but the short question is does the BR get second or third. It is to be assumed he had not made first at TOT but had before the ball is kicked.

[spiritumpa]

BR get third base--two base from time of dead ball(assume br made 1st)

[jnazz]

BR get third base--two base from time of dead ball(assume br made 1st)

So, because the ball was kicked out of play it's a 2 base award from time of dead ball?? But if it went straight out of play it's from tot?

[mrumpiresir]

BR get third base--two base from time of dead ball(assume br made 1st)

There is no such thing as "time of dead ball". It is either Time Of Throw or Time Of Pitch. If the impetus of a defensive player caused the ball to go out of play, you would treat that the same as time of throw.

Edited September 19, 2010 by mrumpiresir

[jnazz]

There is no such thing as "time of dead ball". It is either Time Of Throw or Time Of Pitch.

Good, that's what I thought. The previous post didn't make sense.

[midmoump]

You see the strangest things during girls' softball games.

Under the circumstances, I don't believe this was an overthrow or a subsequent push by a defensive player. I can't think of a rule that covers a play when a runner unintentionally kicks a thrown ball into DBT.

Using common sense and fairness, I would keep R1 at third and place the BR according to where I believe she would have ended up "but for" the kick.

This is a very interesting thread.

[midmoump]

Still trying to reason through this one. I understand the argument that the defense caused the ball to be placed in the runner's path, but I can't help but think that a base award is unreasonable.

I don't mean to change the discussion, but maybe this scenario helps focus the issue:

F1 steps off the rubber and tries to pickoff R1. F1's throw hits R1 in the helmet and the ball deflects into DBT. I will award R1 third.

If the deflection of the ball off the helmet and the deflection from the kick are the same, then my answer to the OP is TOT, BR to second. If the deflection and the kick are not the same, then my original answer (above post) stands.

Pete

[Rich Ives]

Still trying to reason through this one. I understand the argument that the defense caused the ball to be placed in the runner's path, but I can't help but think that a base award is unreasonable.

I don't mean to change the discussion, but maybe this scenario helps focus the issue:

F1 steps off the rubber and tries to pickoff R1. F1's throw hits R1 in the helmet and the ball deflects into DBT. I will award R1 third.

If the deflection of the ball off the helmet and the deflection from the kick are the same, then my answer to the OP is TOT, BR to second. If the deflection and the kick are not the same, then my original answer (above post) stands.

Pete

Reasonable has nothing to do with it.

What caused the ball to go nto dead ball terrirory?

1) The throw from F8 would have gone into DBT.

OR

2) The throw from F8 would NOT have gone into DBT, the kick caused it.

Once you answer this then use a rule to place the runners.

[midmoump]

"Thinking can only hurt the team!" Doh!

I choose answer 2: runner unintentionally kicked the ball into DBT.

Rich, what is the rule that covers this situation? What am I overlooking?

Pete

[Rich Ives]

"Thinking can only hurt the team!" Doh!

I choose answer 2: runner unintentionally kicked the ball into DBT.

Rich, what is the rule that covers this situation? What am I overlooking?

Pete

First, you said a base award is unreasonable. My replay was basically that what you think about whether it's reasonable or not doesn't matter.

Second - the ball is out of play. A ball thrown/kicked/deflected out of play (other than by a pitcher in contact) is always two bases. So now you have to decide "from when". As you decided it wasn't from F8's TOT the only thing left is from the kick.

[midmoump]

Rich, I disagree that all balls thrown/kicked/deflected out of play are always two base awards. Here are two examples:

Ex1: Wet field. R1, base hit to F8 who throws to F5, BR to 2nd. Ball bounces away and comes to rest a few feet away in foul ground. While play is relaxed the third base coach picks up the mud caked ball and tosses the live baseball into the dugout to be cleaned off. This is interference without a play and the base runners remain where they are (based upon common sense and fairness).

Ex2: R1 stealing. F2’s throw is deflected into R1's shirt. Dead ball, R1 remains at second (again based upon common sense and fairness).

My point is, we have rules and interpretations that award two bases when a defensive player kicks the ball into DBT. I just don't know of a rule or interpretation that awards two bases when an offensive player unintentionally kicks the ball into DBT. Why does an act by an offensive player justify a two base award?

I'm not being obstinate, I just want to know how to correctly decide this weird play when it happens on my field.

Pete

[midmoump]

While I'm not totally convinced, I think the best answer is that the defense is responsible to placing the ball into the runner's path which resulted in an unintentional kick and the ball going into DBT. However, I believe the award should be judged from the TOT, not TOK.

That's my final answer, Regis.

Pete

[Rich Ives]

Rich, I disagree that all balls thrown/kicked/deflected out of play are always two base awards. Here are two examples:

Ex1: Wet field. R1, base hit to F8 who throws to F5, BR to 2nd. Ball bounces away and comes to rest a few feet away in foul ground. While play is relaxed the third base coach picks up the mud caked ball and tosses the live baseball into the dugout to be cleaned off. This is interference without a play and the base runners remain where they are (based upon common sense and fairness).

Ex2: R1 stealing. F2’s throw is deflected into R1's shirt. Dead ball, R1 remains at second (again based upon common sense and fairness).

My point is, we have rules and interpretations that award two bases when a defensive player kicks the ball into DBT. I just don't know of a rule or interpretation that awards two bases when an offensive player unintentionally kicks the ball into DBT. Why does an act by an offensive player justify a two base award?

I'm not being obstinate, I just want to know how to correctly decide this weird play when it happens on my field.

Pete

Nice try but:

Example 1: The interference killed the ball. It was dead at that point because of the interference, not because it went out of play. Tossing it into the dugout or putting it into his pocket or whatever is meaningless.

Example 2: It's already in the rules (MLBUM). It's a God rule as to placement of the runners so you can do what you wish if that happens (except call an out). It isn't what happened though.

Why does an act by an offensive player justify a two base award?

Because 1) it was UNintentional and 2) the ball was there becase the defense screwed up.

You don't like the award so you're looking for a reason to not award it. The MLBUM covers a number of scenarios on a ball going out of play. ALL are two bases. The only difference is "from when". Again - ALL (other than a pitch/throw from an in contact pitcher) are two bases. That's a fundamental rule: out of play = two bases. The basic theory on determining "from when" is "what impetus caused the ball to go out of play".

There is one that says if a ball goes THROUGH a fielder and remains on the field and is subsequently kicked (doesn't say by whom) then it's two bases TOT. All other kicks are two bases TOK, including ones where the fielder possessed the ball, dropped it, and it was subsequently kicked. This play was most similar to the possessed/dropped plays.

There isn't always a specific rule. Often you need to derive a ruling based on rulings in similar scenarios. But don't just make something up based on a personal view of what;s fair - or not.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Rich Ives

[midmoump]

Rich,

Thank you for an excellent explanation. The MLBUM will be my next purchase.

Pete

[mstaylor]

So your choices are two bases TOT, two bases TOK or no award. Remember so everyone uses the same set of circumstances the BR hadn't reach first TOT but was past first TOK.

[Rich Ives]

. Remember so everyone uses the same set of circumstances the BR hadn't reach first TOT but was past first TOK.

That's if the first throw was by an infielder.

This was by an outfielder so it doesn't apply. 7.05(g)

[mstaylor]

If you are awarding TOT, it does matter which side first he is on. I am well aware that the 1st play rule doesn't apply. I agree with you on the ruling, I was just getting guys to leave a bunch of conjecture out of the equation.