Think I kicked this

[clawdad]

Modified Level HS Game using FED rules. Steady drizzle since the start of the game, so the field was sloppy but not unplayable. I am BU in B position. HT up to bat, 2 outs. Bases loaded. VT F3 could barely catch a cold, let alone a wet ball. Batter hits a slow dribbler back to F1. F1 bobbles the ball, but recovers and lobs a throw to first. Ball reaches F3 about a 1/2 step before BR. The throw was low, and either F1 thought he should tag the B/R , or the direction of the throw brings F1's glove down into the BR's knee. I was too quick with my timing, and started my "out" mechanic. Impact from the B/R knee dislodges the ball, and is on the ground. I swithced to "SAFE! Ball's on the ground" VT coach asks what I had. I told him that since F3 did not maintain posession of the throw, the runner was safe at first. VT coach asked "what about the force?" ( he felt that his F3 made the catch for the out before BR made it to 1B, then ball came loose). I again told the coach that F1 never cleanly gloved the throw, and BR was safe. He grumbled a bit, but play continued without other problems. (I think mostly because he has not won a game yet, and they were getting clobbered in this game.)

I know I was quick with my timing, but my question was this: Did I make the right call in regards to the safe/out regarding the lack of control of the ball by F3?

[umpcoachfather]

Was his foot on the bag? If not, he needs to complete the catch, I am at work but I'm pretty sure J/R has some wording around a dropped fly ball and a dropped thrown ball maybe someone here can provide that, if not I will look tonight. The catch is complete upon voluntary release of the ball is the definition but i think I remember J/R stating something about this. Perhaps also, someone who attended Jims or Harry's course or a clinic may have that exact knowledge/wording/insight.

[johnnyg08]

There is a difference between a caught, airborne batted ball and a gloved thrown ball.

[umpcoachfather]

Found this from J/R doing a quick google search. The Rules of Professional Baseball employs methodology that would be considered standard in any technical manual or course. Rules and their related concepts are presented with painstaking attention to details of language. For instance, a "catch" very specifically means "catch" of an airborne batted ball (or airborne pitched ball) for an out; to be distinguished from "gloving" the ball-gaining possession of any throw, or a batted or pitched ball that is no longer airborne. Since every word has a specific meaning, confusion is averted when the terms are used in examples or related rules. Also, similar concepts are presented together. For example, "catch" (for an out) and "tag" (of a runner or base for an out) have identical requirements; the fielder must gain complete control and show voluntary release of the ball in completing the catch or tag.

So to answer if his foot was off the bag and he made a swipe tag and the ball came out, I have the runner safe as the fielder did not satisfy the requirement. For some reason I thought J/R defined them differently.

[sdix00]

Modified Level HS Game using FED rules. Steady drizzle since the start of the game, so the field was sloppy but not unplayable. I am BU in B position. HT up to bat, 2 outs. Bases loaded. VT F3 could barely catch a cold, let alone a wet ball. Batter hits a slow dribbler back to F1. F1 bobbles the ball, but recovers and lobs a throw to first. Ball reaches F3 about a 1/2 step before BR. The throw was low, and either F1 thought he should tag the B/R , or the direction of the throw brings F1's glove down into the BR's knee. I was too quick with my timing, and started my "out" mechanic. Impact from the B/R knee dislodges the ball, and is on the ground. I swithced to "SAFE! Ball's on the ground" VT coach asks what I had. I told him that since F3 did not maintain posession of the throw, the runner was safe at first. VT coach asked "what about the force?" ( he felt that his F3 made the catch for the out before BR made it to 1B, then ball came loose). I again told the coach that F1 never cleanly gloved the throw, and BR was safe. He grumbled a bit, but play continued without other problems. (I think mostly because he has not won a game yet, and they were getting clobbered in this game.)

I know I was quick with my timing, but my question was this: Did I make the right call in regards to the safe/out regarding the lack of control of the ball by F3?

Read the definition of TAG in rule 2.00. This is why you made the correct call. However, using the language similar to the definition of TAG will be more accurate. From your OP, you referred to gaining possession of the throw and gloving the throw, yet the "throw" has nothing to do with the actual TAG required in the rules.

So, a more appropriate response to both of the coach's questions might be "your fielder did not firmly and securely hold the ball throughout the tag attempt".

Obviously, it's a technicality and the coach and 99% of your partners don't care about the difference. However, forcing yourself to think about the language in the book will help you avoid trouble when it really counts.

[UmpJM]

clawdad,

The rules only require that the fielder have "secure possession" of the ball at the time of the tag.

If the F3 had secure possession AND was touching the base (presumably with his foot) before the BR reached 1B, and then subsequently lost possession of the ball due to an unrelated event - say an inadvertent collision with the BR - then that is a legal tag, and the BR is out.

If the F3 did not have his foot on the bag and went to tag the BR (rather than the base) and failed to maintain possession of the ball as a result of the contact with his mitt and the BR, that is NOT a legal tag and the BR is safe.

JM

[clawdad]

Appreciate the responses.

JM - from my position, it appeared F3 was touching the base; the bag was covered with mud though. I believe what threw me off was the attempted tag of the BR (the more I go over it in my head it seems like the F3 was attempting a tag) which may have caused me to think his foot was not touching. I need to slow down my timing and register everything that happens better.

sdix - I like your response about the "tag attempt." You're right, the coach wouldn't have known or cared aobut the difference. My partner, well he was also not aware that you could award the batter 1B on a pitch that bounces before it hits him. There were also a lot of called "dead balls" when batters were hit (instead of "Time"). He's a rookie this year like me, so we talked about those things in our post-game. We also discussed pointing the batter to first on ball 4, and how it could be confused with his strike mechanic.

[johnnyg08]

Don't point on ball 4. He knows where to go. It is a bad mechanic for a lot of reasons.

[johnnyg08]

the bag was covered with mud though.

Was the base really that muddy? If it was, then there's no doubt he was on the bag.

[clawdad]

Like I said, Johnny- I think it was the attempted tag that threw me off. He very well could have been touching - that's why I feel may have kicked it. As far as the mud, I did notice at other points between innings there was about 1" of mud built up between the base and the footprint where both F3's were while holding runners on.

I will file it away for next time.