Giving Up The Ball

[BigUmp56]

We train newer umpires to "keep their eye everlastingly on the ball", yet we know there are times when it's a good idea to "give up the ball" to keep plays from exploding on them. It's the off season and kind of slow, so how about a discussion on how and when to "give up the ball" as opposed to keeping your eye on the ball.

Tim.

[Stretch]

Glancing at runners touching bases.

Glancing at runners retagging a base after a catch.

[mstaylor]

I teach to watch the ball but the runner is your prime responsibility. Here is a play that ended in ejection. Ball hit down the line in left, 15 to 20ft fair. I go up the line to watch the catch, he caught it bobbled it and caught it at his waist, I call the catch. My BU was in A, reads the hit, makes his pivot, watches the touch, picks the ball up to see if there is a play at second. At the time of the catch the ball was offside to the BU, my call all the way. The PU's job is primarily the runner, he doesn't need to read the catch, he doesn't need to look at it until the BR has touch first, then he has to pick it back up to see if there is a catch or further play.

I have told this story here I'm sure, but the manager argued the ball hit the fence when he bobbled it. I didn't have it and stayed with catch. He wanted me to get the BU into it. I explained the BU is watching the runner and has nothing to give me. After the game my BU said I should have come to him, he had something for me and it if not it would have made the coach happy. This situation covers a couple of things that I have stressed. The BU should not have been looking at the catch, because he shouldn't be looking I will not go to him for help, and I WILL NEVER GO JUST TO MAKE A COACH HAPPY.

Long story short, if a ball is to the outfield and the ball is not in your area of responsibility, then watching the runner can be more important than the ball. With a single runner and the ball out of your area, your need to watch the between the initial read and the BR touching first, is nill. I am not addressing tag ups, multible runnners or a host of other scenarios. In other plays, you need to be aware when the ball is released for award purposes.

[mw94]

Hey If you only follow the ball , You will never see an "Obstruction call" especially type "B" when no play is being made on the runner

[mstaylor]

I tell guys that from A it is more watch the runner and glance at the ball.

[carolinablue]

The BU should not have been looking at the catch, because he shouldn't be looking I will not go to him for help, and I WILL NEVER GO JUST TO MAKE A COACH HAPPY.

I wish my partner would have felt that way in an all-star game this past summer. Batter hit a high fly deep to center with noone on. I pivoted and heard the fence rattle and then saw my partner calling a GRD. Everyone related to the offense went crazy saying it was a HR. He called me over to talk but I was watching the runner and didn't have anything but somehow when he held up the GRD call it got put on me.

[mstaylor]

With a ball to center it is possible you may have seen something, depending on the timing. I can see asking if I think there was the slightest chance you might have picked it back up. However, when I talk to the manager I am going to tell him that you are watching the runner and may not have anything. I will go ask but he has to understand that the ball isn't the BU's job there. If you indeed have nothing then I will go back and tell him that you were still on the runner when it went over and have nothing for me. What I will not do is go ask you, you have nothing, then I go back and say WE have a GRD. I suspect that may be what your partner did, told the coach you backed him up, if you have nothing then I will tell him that and keep the call for myself.

[AZump78]

Here's one: When a pitch is coming in, is clearly going to be out of the strike zone, and the batter checks his swing. This would be a time for an advanced umpire to give up on the ball and watch to see if the batter "goes around".

[AZump78]

The BU should not have been looking at the catch, because he shouldn't be looking I will not go to him for help, and I WILL NEVER GO JUST TO MAKE A COACH HAPPY.

I wish my partner would have felt that way in an all-star game this past summer. Batter hit a high fly deep to center with noone on. I pivoted and heard the fence rattle and then saw my partner calling a GRD. Everyone related to the offense went crazy saying it was a HR. He called me over to talk but I was watching the runner and didn't have anything but somehow when he held up the GRD call it got put on me.

I may be going against the grain here, but in the ground rule double scenario above as well as the "trouble ball" described by mstaylor, I would rather have my partner watching the ball also in those situations rather than the touch of first/possible obstruction.

Sometimes coming "in" from behind first base ("A" if you will) you have a good angle on balls to center and left. And when it looks like something "weird" might happen (especially with noone on) having an extra pair of eyes on the ball can really help in making sure we get the call right.

[mstaylor]

That would be the read the hit part at the beginning of the play. When the ball is hit you read whether it is a catchable ball, if it is in your area of responsibility,a clean hit, possible HR or possible GRD. What it is makes you decide how attentive you need to be to the ball and how much to the runner. If you read it as a trouble ball then certainly give the ball as much attention as possible. However, the pivot is there to make you watch the runner touch. As soon as he does you need to pick the ball up to see if the runner is going to try for second, hold at first or the ball has been caught. I agree that it is good to have a econd set of eyes on a problem ball and a proper read at the beginning may just get you that.

[AZump78]

That would be the read the hit part at the beginning of the play. When the ball is hit you read whether it is a catchable ball, if it is in your area of responsibility,a clean hit, possible HR or possible GRD. What it is makes you decide how attentive you need to be to the ball and how much to the runner. If you read it as a trouble ball then certainly give the ball as much attention as possible. However, the pivot is there to make you watch the runner touch. As soon as he does you need to pick the ball up to see if the runner is going to try for second, hold at first or the ball has been caught. I agree that it is good to have a econd set of eyes on a problem ball and a proper read at the beginning may just get you that.

Agreed on all counts. I guess what I was getting at is this: If it (trouble/something abnormal and the BR touching first) is all coming together simultaneously-skip the touch and watch the ball (even if it's not, by the book, your responsibility).

[AZump78]

The BU should not have been looking at the catch, because he shouldn't be looking I will not go to him for help, and I WILL NEVER GO JUST TO MAKE A COACH HAPPY.

I wish my partner would have felt that way in an all-star game this past summer. Batter hit a high fly deep to center with noone on. I pivoted and heard the fence rattle and then saw my partner calling a GRD. Everyone related to the offense went crazy saying it was a HR. He called me over to talk but I was watching the runner and didn't have anything but somehow when he held up the GRD call it got put on me.

Two questions on this one:

1. If the center fielder was going straight back or to his left, and there was potential for boundary call, then why didn't you go out?

2. If the center fielder was going to his right, and thus was the batted ball was not your responsibility (but was a potential boundary call), why would you not come into the infield, NOT pivot, watch the ball and simply glance over your shoulder when the touch was going to occur?

[AZump78]

I teach to watch the ball but the runner is your prime responsibility. Here is a play that ended in ejection. Ball hit down the line in left, 15 to 20ft fair. I go up the line to watch the catch, he caught it bobbled it and caught it at his waist, I call the catch. My BU was in A, reads the hit, makes his pivot, watches the touch, picks the ball up to see if there is a play at second. At the time of the catch the ball was offside to the BU, my call all the way. The PU's job is primarily the runner, he doesn't need to read the catch, he doesn't need to look at it until the BR has touch first, then he has to pick it back up to see if there is a catch or further play.

I have told this story here I'm sure, but the manager argued the ball hit the fence when he bobbled it. I didn't have it and stayed with catch. He wanted me to get the BU into it. I explained the BU is watching the runner and has nothing to give me. After the game my BU said I should have come to him, he had something for me and it if not it would have made the coach happy. This situation covers a couple of things that I have stressed. The BU should not have been looking at the catch, because he shouldn't be looking I will not go to him for help, and I WILL NEVER GO JUST TO MAKE A COACH HAPPY.

Long story short, if a ball is to the outfield and the ball is not in your area of responsibility, then watching the runner can be more important than the ball. With a single runner and the ball out of your area, your need to watch the between the initial read and the BR touching first, is nill. I am not addressing tag ups, multible runnners or a host of other scenarios. In other plays, you need to be aware when the ball is released for award purposes.

This is a great scenario you laid out and I think we could discuss several points you brought up, but I don't want to hijack what I think is a good thread topic. As a moderator, would you consider moving this over to Situations or perhaps a new thread in Umpire Mechanics?

[mstaylor]

Where would you like to break it up? That is no problem to do but I wasn't sure where to break it. Or do you think it should all stay here but then take part to another thread also?

Edited to add:

I started a thread starting with post 6 from here.

[AZump78]

Where would you like to break it up? That is no problem to do but I wasn't sure where to break it. Or do you think it should all stay here but then take part to another thread also?

Edited to add:

I started a thread starting with post 6 from here.

Thanks MS-Its fine the way you did it. I just think the OP of "when would you agree it makes sense to take your eyes off the ball" is a great topic and hope to get some more responses from everyone regarding.