Hidden Ball Trick

[sdix00]

Last night during a Fall Ball game between two friendly teams, one of the teams asked me about the hidden ball trick during a pitching change. Normally I wouldn't indulge during the game, but it was Fall Ball and I was curious about how it would work and I knew that this team would not execute it correctly and the attempt would turn in to a travesty because they had absolutely no clue how to do it.

So I went ahead and answered their questions. i.e "nope, we can't put the ball in play unless F1 has the ball on the rubber", "nope, doing that way would be a balk", etc.

So they finally figured it all out and attempted it legally and unsuccessfully at 1B. It was fun and we all had a good laugh.

But it then occurred to me that my position in B made the location of the ball obvious. After F1 gave F3 the ball I turned square to 1B followed F3 back to 1B with my eyes. Looking at me, it would have been obvious to anyone where the ball was. It then occurred to me that had they tried this at 2B, that I would have had to be turned 180 degrees to face 2B from C.

It seems to me that this play is really pretty much impractical to execute with only 2 umpires on the field.

Even in 3 or 4 man, with an umpire in deep B or deep C, it seems like it is a pretty awkward play not only to execute, but to call. Maybe easier on a 60' field with BU on the outside of the diamond, but not so much on a 90' field.

Have you ever seen this play executed perfectly, and been in a position to call it properly? If you know the play is coming, is there a better way to handle it?

Here is the Irvine/LSU play for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brfWfv53uNs

[mstaylor]

It's interesting that the base umpire didn't follow proper ejection procedure on the coach. When he threw his hat down, the proper procedure is to step on it, turn on it then toss him. He will now have a very dirty hat to put back on.

As far as how to handle the play, you need to stand so you can see both the fielder and the pitcher. You have to make sure the pitcher doesn't balk in the attempt. It doesn't matter if you think you might give it away, you aren't playing defense. Also, 99.9% of the time they either don't get the out, balk or the ball wasn't put in play correctly so it's nothing.

I had a HS completely fake me out on a hidden ball trick, I had no idea the F4 had the ball. He tags the runner and he is bouncing up and down yelling he has the ball, look, look, look. I replied so you do and the pitcher is on the rubber, you, third base.

[Mr Umpire]

The only best way is to position yourself so you can glance at the base. At 1B or 3B, it isn't that hard b/c you just need to move your eyes and possibly your head a little.

At 2B, it is a little more difficult. I had one last year. All you can do is position yourself at an angle to 2B and stand there instead of being in HOK position while not being completely turned around or even where you are positioned facing 1B. Then, continue to turn your head back and forth. No one will know b/c you just look like you are waiting to figure out where to position yourself. We may not be on defense but we need to do our best not to give an advantage to either side and let the course of the game go as if we weren't there in some cases. They got the runner at 2B.

[UMP45]

Have to disagree Mr. Umpire. I don't wory about my body position. I follow the ball. I could care less if I tip the offense off. All of your body positioning and head turning will set you up to miss the tag because,sure as the world, it will happen when you look away. No one really watches us anyway!

[semper_fi_72]

I have seen it executed perfectly at 3B.

Play at 3B with F1 backing up the play.

Once the play was over F1 heads back to the mound and F5 fakes placing the ball into F1s glove.

As F1 is half way to the mound R3 starts to lead off.

F5 tags him.

OUT!!!!!!

Inning over.

[Mr Umpire]

Have to disagree Mr. Umpire. I don't wory about my body position. I follow the ball. I could care less if I tip the offense off. All of your body positioning and head turning will set you up to miss the tag because,sure as the world, it will happen when you look away. No one really watches us anyway!

Not true. I have seen so many watch an umpire to see if he noticed anything on a play such as missed bases or OBS. As soon as anyone suspects something happened, they look to see if the umpire is looking or read his body language to see if something was seen. They watch more than you know or realize. And, this is a case where they may as well. I do concern myself with not being a factor in any play and learned to control it by not giving away what I know or saw.

[UMP45]

Watch the ball...glance at the runners. True?

[Rich Ives]

Have to disagree Mr. Umpire. I don't wory about my body position. I follow the ball. I could care less if I tip the offense off. All of your body positioning and head turning will set you up to miss the tag because,sure as the world, it will happen when you look away. No one really watches us anyway!

Not true. I have seen so many watch an umpire to see if he noticed anything on a play such as missed bases or OBS. As soon as anyone suspects something happened, they look to see if the umpire is looking or read his body language to see if something was seen. They watch more than you know or realize. And, this is a case where they may as well. I do concern myself with not being a factor in any play and learned to control it by not giving away what I know or saw.

You betcha. I'd always look to see if I thought the umpire noticed something. Sometimes they can give away a lot.

[spiritump]

Last night during a Fall Ball game between two friendly teams, one of the teams asked me about the hidden ball trick during a pitching change. Normally I wouldn't indulge during the game, but it was Fall Ball and I was curious about how it would work and I knew that this team would not execute it correctly and the attempt would turn in to a travesty because they had absolutely no clue how to do it.

So I went ahead and answered their questions. i.e "nope, we can't put the ball in play unless F1 has the ball on the rubber", "nope, doing that way would be a balk", etc.

So they finally figured it all out and attempted it legally and unsuccessfully at 1B. It was fun and we all had a good laugh.

But it then occurred to me that my position in B made the location of the ball obvious. After F1 gave F3 the ball I turned square to 1B followed F3 back to 1B with my eyes. Looking at me, it would have been obvious to anyone where the ball was. It then occurred to me that had they tried this at 2B, that I would have had to be turned 180 degrees to face 2B from C.

It seems to me that this play is really pretty much impractical to execute with only 2 umpires on the field.

Even in 3 or 4 man, with an umpire in deep B or deep C, it seems like it is a pretty awkward play not only to execute, but to call. Maybe easier on a 60' field with BU on the outside of the diamond, but not so much on a 90' field.

Have you ever seen this play executed perfectly, and been in a position to call it properly? If you know the play is coming, is there a better way to handle it?

Here is the Irvine/LSU play for reference.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=brfWfv53uNs

after time is called you can not do a hidden ball trick--in order to put the ball in play the pitcher MUST have the ball when he steps on the rubber--the ball could not be put in play without that--so if the pitcher does not have the ball it can not be put in play.

[UmpTTS43]

Again with the "tipping" someone off. If you are not keeping your eyes on the ball during a hidden ball trick you are not doing your job. Not saying you have to stand next to the play but you have to know where the ball is and watch it. When I have had the HBT I will go my my position and face the ball.

[sdix00]

Last night during a Fall Ball game between two friendly teams, one of the teams asked me about the hidden ball trick during a pitching change. Normally I wouldn't indulge during the game, but it was Fall Ball and I was curious about how it would work and I knew that this team would not execute it correctly and the attempt would turn in to a travesty because they had absolutely no clue how to do it.

So I went ahead and answered their questions. i.e "nope, we can't put the ball in play unless F1 has the ball on the rubber", "nope, doing that way would be a balk", etc.

So they finally figured it all out and attempted it legally and unsuccessfully at 1B. It was fun and we all had a good laugh.

But it then occurred to me that my position in B made the location of the ball obvious. After F1 gave F3 the ball I turned square to 1B followed F3 back to 1B with my eyes. Looking at me, it would have been obvious to anyone where the ball was. It then occurred to me that had they tried this at 2B, that I would have had to be turned 180 degrees to face 2B from C.

It seems to me that this play is really pretty much impractical to execute with only 2 umpires on the field.

Even in 3 or 4 man, with an umpire in deep B or deep C, it seems like it is a pretty awkward play not only to execute, but to call. Maybe easier on a 60' field with BU on the outside of the diamond, but not so much on a 90' field.

Have you ever seen this play executed perfectly, and been in a position to call it properly? If you know the play is coming, is there a better way to handle it?

Here is the Irvine/LSU play for reference.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=brfWfv53uNs

after time is called you can not do a hidden ball trick--in order to put the ball in play the pitcher MUST have the ball when he steps on the rubber--the ball could not be put in play without that--so if the pitcher does not have the ball it can not be put in play.

Per the conversation about what was and was not legal, time was never called and the exchange was made while the ball was live.

[carolinablue]

Again with the "tipping" someone off. If you are not keeping your eyes on the ball during a hidden ball trick you are not doing your job. Not saying you have to stand next to the play but you have to know where the ball is and watch it. When I have had the HBT I will go my my position and face the ball.

I agree. If they are clever enough to watch and pick something up then that's smart on their behalf.

[Mr Umpire]

If you are intentionally becoming a factor in the game, you are not doing your job. It isn't that hard to do and still know what is going on. I guess I have just been able to pull it off without missing one and without tipping it off as well. My beginner's luck I guess.

[Rich Ives]

Again with the "tipping" someone off. If you are not keeping your eyes on the ball during a hidden ball trick you are not doing your job. Not saying you have to stand next to the play but you have to know where the ball is and watch it. When I have had the HBT I will go my my position and face the ball.

If you are standing there staring at the location of the ball you are interjecting yourself into the play. You need to know where the ball is. You don't need to point it out.

[UmpTTS43]

Again with the "tipping" someone off. If you are not keeping your eyes on the ball during a hidden ball trick you are not doing your job. Not saying you have to stand next to the play but you have to know where the ball is and watch it. When I have had the HBT I will go my my position and face the ball.

If you are standing there staring at the location of the ball you are interjecting yourself into the play. You need to know where the ball is. You don't need to point it out.

No, I'm doing my job. How do you recommend someone watch the play? You don't have to be standing straight up and staring but you do have to be watching. We have to officiate that is our job.

[carolinablue]

If you go out of your way to be non-chalant are you not helping them pull it off ? I'm not talking about drooling over the ball but you know a tag is attempt is coming, you have to be watching or you will miss it. Explain to the DC that you missed it because you didn't want to give it away, he'll understand.

[Mr Umpire]

OK. If you are only looking at the ball, who is watching the pitcher to make sure he isn't getting on or near the rubber? You have to be looking or how do you explain missing a balk and his runner out to the OC. You should not be only fixed on the ball. Your partner may not know where the ball is for some reason and can't help with any call. It is all you and you have to be able to look at both the runner and the pitcher. That is why I am not going to sit there and be looking at the ball only. Not only to keep myself out of the play but to know if any violation is going on away from the ball. You have to be able to do more and it sounds like some have only 1 thing on the mind at a time.

[UMP45]

What is your partner watching? You are making it harder then it needs to be.

[Mr Umpire]

What is your partner watching? You are making it harder then it needs to be.

You can't tell me you watch everything behind the plate. I know every one of us have missed something from behind the plate while getting positioned behind the catcher by taking our eye off the ball temporarily so we aren't standing right on top of the catcher or seeing if the batter is coming to the plate if he isn't there already. I think too many have done this too long and are not realizing all the variables which do cause things like this to get screwed up in a hurry and don't even realize it. I am not the one who is making the concept harder than it needs to be. In fact, I am the one who is not looking to interject myself into the play and looking to give it away b/c I don't know how to position myself properly to see all of it while being ready to get the out/safe or a balk at the same time.

[mstaylor]

The PU can't call a balk on the pitcher if he doesn't know the ball got passed off, he may not even be looking at the pitcher.

[Rich Ives]

If you go out of your way to be non-chalant are you not helping them pull it off ? I'm not talking about drooling over the ball but you know a tag is attempt is coming, you have to be watching or you will miss it. Explain to the DC that you missed it because you didn't want to give it away, he'll understand.

Don't go out of your way. Just do what you'd normally do. Staring at the ball isn't it.

[UmpTTS43]

I understand that as a BU we have multiple responsibilities when a hidden ball trick is being attempted. We have to be aware of the positioning of the pitcher but our main responsibility is knowing where the ball is and being able to rule on any play that is attempted. Our positioning is dictated by the plays or possible plays on the field. Again, I could care less if one team or another gets information concerning a play by my positioning. I have a job to do and will put myself in the best position to make a ruling.

[Rich Ives]

I understand that as a BU we have multiple responsibilities when a hidden ball trick is being attempted. We have to be aware of the positioning of the pitcher but our main responsibility is knowing where the ball is and being able to rule on any play that is attempted. Our positioning is dictated by the plays or possible plays on the field. Again, I could care less if one team or another gets information concerning a play by my positioning. I have a job to do and will put myself in the best position to make a ruling.

So what if you do NOT know who has the ball? You position yourself how? When the fielder makes a tag on a surprised runner you call what? Fome where?

Or do you kill the play because they fooled you too?

[UmpTTS43]

I understand that as a BU we have multiple responsibilities when a hidden ball trick is being attempted. We have to be aware of the positioning of the pitcher but our main responsibility is knowing where the ball is and being able to rule on any play that is attempted. Our positioning is dictated by the plays or possible plays on the field. Again, I could care less if one team or another gets information concerning a play by my positioning. I have a job to do and will put myself in the best position to make a ruling.

So what if you do NOT know who has the ball? You position yourself how? When the fielder makes a tag on a surprised runner you call what? Fome where?

Or do you kill the play because they fooled you too?

If I do not know where the ball is, I have failed in my job. I was caught off guard early in my career and that taught me a valuable lesson. During the four times this play has been attempted since then, I have known who has the ball. As far as my positioning goes, I will be in B or C depending on situation but will be aware of who has the ball along with other responsibilities. The one time I was caught off guard, we called time at the appropriate time, got together as a crew and made a decision. When the tag is applied on a runner, it is when the runner has taken a lead off from the base. At that time I will make the appropriate call.

I have worked enough ball to recognize, the majority of the time, when the pitcher is making a pickoff move. When this move is made, I take my adjustment step/steps for the possible play. There have been times that I recognize the pickoff before the runner does. Does this mean that I shouldn't move before the runner because it might tip off the offense? I do my job, they do theirs.

[Rich Ives]

I have worked enough ball to recognize, the majority of the time, when the pitcher is making a pickoff move. When this move is made, I take my adjustment step/steps for the possible play. There have been times that I recognize the pickoff before the runner does. Does this mean that I shouldn't move before the runner because it might tip off the offense? I do my job, they do theirs.

If you do something that tips them off you are NOT doing your job. Your job is to be impartial.