Are there run?

[oswalmar]

Hi!

There is a situation I want to talk with you: Runners on 1st. and 2nd. base, 1 Out. The Batter hit to CF, and both runners scored. The Batter-Runner is made out trying to get 2nd. base (2 outs). The 1st’s runner is made out in appeal play, because he failed tag 2nd. base (3 outs). Question: Are there run?

Greetings.

[mstaylor]

No, the appeal was a force so no runs.

[mjr_2013]

Nope... There is/was a force at 2nd, so it is like no one passed 2nd base once they made the appeal...

Welcome to the board! Next time please use the proper sub forum though... There is one labeled "Situations" that this could go into perfectly... It isn't really a membership question with the site.

[oswalmar]

Nope... There is/was a force at 2nd, so it is like no one passed 2nd base once they made the appeal...

Welcome to the board! Next time please use the proper sub forum though... There is one labeled "Situations" that this could go into perfectly... It isn't really a membership question with the site.

Thanks, I'll remember for next time. And I think if I am a member of the Forum. My nickname is Oswalmar since 2009. But I did not understand his answer. The run is valid or not?

[ukce1861]

Nope... There is/was a force at 2nd, so it is like no one passed 2nd base once they made the appeal...

Welcome to the board! Next time please use the proper sub forum though... There is one labeled "Situations" that this could go into perfectly... It isn't really a membership question with the site.

Thanks, I'll remember for next time. And I think if I am a member of the Forum. My nickname is Oswalmar since 2009. But I did not understand his answer. The run is valid or not?

No, the run is not valid. Since the third out occured as a result of a force play (the runner from 1st never legally obtained second) no runs may score.

[oswalmar]

Nope... There is/was a force at 2nd, so it is like no one passed 2nd base once they made the appeal...

Welcome to the board! Next time please use the proper sub forum though... There is one labeled "Situations" that this could go into perfectly... It isn't really a membership question with the site.

Thanks, I'll remember for next time. And I think if I am a member of the Forum. My nickname is Oswalmar since 2009. But I did not understand his answer. The run is valid or not?

No, the run is not valid. Since the third out occured as a result of a force play (the runner from 1st never legally obtained second) no runs may score.

Thanks, again. Regards

[oswalmar]

Hi, some colleages here in Venezuela say that is a not forced play, because the BR was out and he stay back of 1st base's runner. How I can explain it of convincent way?

[sdix00]

Sorry for the lack of formatting.  Browsing on the iPad today.<br /><br />The section below, from chapter 9 From J/R is in italics, so we know what that means.

chapter 9 -appeals

NOTE: If a consecutive runner has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner, and he is forced at the moment he misses his advance base, an appeal of that base is always a force out. EG: bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. First the defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner does not negate the fact that R1 was forced when he missed the base. Rl's appeal out (third out) is also a force out; R2 and R3's runs are negated (see Chapter 10-I-D).

Chapter 10 - determining a run

[There cannot be a run if a runner has touched (or passed) home base, but there is related action wherein] the third out is: (1) the batter-runner before touching (or passing) first base, or the batter-runner on an appeal for missing first, or when his batted ball is caught. [4.09a1] [4.09b] another runner who is forced out. [4.09a2] [7.12] a leading runner on appeal. No runners following such runner can score. [4.09a3] [4.09b] [7.10d] [7.12] (2) (3) 

Example: R2 and R1, one out. The batter lines an extra-base hit to right-center field. R2 and R1 advance to home, but R1 misses second base. The batter-runner is thrown out at third base (2 outs). The defense then appeals that R1 missed second base, and the appeal is upheld: the appeal out is a force out because at the moment he missed second, R1 was forced to advance to that base. Since the third out was a force out, no runs score.

[mstaylor]

From the 2011 Rulebook

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,

second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Also from the 2011 rulebook.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

When the batter becomes a runner he forces the R1 to advance. If he fails to touch his next advance base and is appealed, his out is a force.

[sdix00]

. . .

[sdix00]

This is what you tell your colleagues:

7.08(e) articulates the two ways a force can be removed:

The force is removed if a following runner is put out on a force play.

The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance.

Neither if these events occurred in your example.

Therefore, R1 is still vulnerable to appeal.

[Rich Ives]

This is what you tell your colleagues:

7.08(e) articulates the two ways a force can be removed:

The force is removed if a following runner is put out on a force play.

The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance.

Neither if these events occurred in your example.

Therefore, R1 is still vulnerable to appeal.

Not the only ways. One of the many errors in the book.

All forces are removed if the B-R is put out in any manner (which is wht the IFF removes the forces) or a force is removed if a current runner creating the force is put out.

BUT

per most interpretations, if the force was in effect at the time of the infraction it remains a force even if something happens that would normally remove it.

[sdix00]

I thought of that as well, but I couldn't cite it properly. Since he is looking for a simple explanation, I guess I was hoping 7.08(e) alone might satisfy his colleagues.

[oswalmar]

. . .

Thanks sdix00, as I mentioned, I wanted is to have stronger argument to explain them. Since the first response was clear to me the situation of force play. I appreciate that...

[oswalmar]

I thought of that as well, but I couldn't cite it properly. Since he is looking for a simple explanation, I guess I was hoping 7.08(e) alone might satisfy his colleagues.

Thank you again to Rich Ives and sdix00 for its vast explanations. Clearest ... Impossible! I hope to continue counting with your support in doubts arising in our profession complex and fascinating...