How should this be ruled?

[Viper]

So last night me and my partner we umpiring a little league game using little league rules and the darndest thing happened. Here is the situation.

Bases are loaded with two outs. The batter hits a ball into the right-center gap, which scores two runs, the runners on 2nd and 3rd. Unfortunately, the runner scoring from 3rd did not touch home plate and the runner from 2nd did. The catcher who has the ball at this time walks over and tags the kid out who did not touch home plate. For some reason the kid who did not touch the plate was making no attempt to touch home and there was no appeal on the play as to whether or not he touched home.

Once the catcher tagged the kid who missed home, I called him out and told the coaches that the run that scored after him would count. I did this because there was no force on the play and the third out was made after the kid from second had touched home. Im not sure if this is the right call and this situation confused everyone that i talked to. Hopefully, someone here has some insight for me!

According to the rulebook, the run cannot score only if the play is appealed, but the way the play unfolded it didnt seem like there was an appeal.

Help and thanks!

Viper

[jjb]

OK, it's in two places in 4.09 (MLB)

"A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a

play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is

declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

Also:

"When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally

occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire’s decision, the runner is out

when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out the

runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following

runners."

So, in your situation, the runner at third (we call him R3, for future reference), misses HP. F2 runs over and tags him for the out. If you look at the above references, that's the third out and nobody behind him scores. (If it was R2 that missed HP, you'd score R3, BTW)

You should also know that, by F2 running over and tagging R3 who's wandering around out there, that that is considered an appeal, as long as you judge that that's why he tagged him. He's appealing the missed plate. It's the same as tagging a base after a fly ball when you appeal that the runner failed to tag up.

got it?

[Mr Umpire]

Just to add to this. The appeal which jjb is referring to is a force play in this situation. Bases were loaded at the time R3 was forced to go to HP.

So, no matter what, no run scores on this play. The appeal in this situation is a force play. It wouldn't be if R3 wasn't forced but no runs score anyway since he was the preceding runner tagged out for the 3rd out.

[jjb]

Oops, you're right, Mr. Ump: mulitasking and didn't see that the bases were loaded.

[PeteBooth]

name='Viper' timestamp='1306437067' post='54173']

The batter hits a ball into the right-center gap, which scores two runs, the runners on 2nd and 3rd. Unfortunately, the runner scoring from 3rd did not touch home plate and the runner from 2nd did. The catcher who has the ball at this time walks over and tags the kid out who did not touch home plate.

Where was R3 when F2 tagged him? Re: if R3 was in DBT when F2 tagged him then we have awards to make. The defense can then appeal and since a preceding runner already scored (R2), R3 cannot correct his base running mistake.

I called him out and told the coaches that the run that scored after him would count. I did this because there was no force on the play and the third out was made after the kid from second had touched home.

Be careful what you say to coaches. Bases are loaded with two outs. Since the batter became a runner, R1/R2 and R3 are forced to advance hence this is a force play. You said LL so that's why you got 'away with it" When you are dealing with more experienced coaches they will "call you on it" and protest the ruling. Also, even if there were no force (assume R2/R3 only) no run would score because R3 would be out number 3 and any runs AFTER him as another poster noted would NOT count.

RECOMMENDATION: Since you are new to umpiring if you can afford it purchase JR's (Jaksa Roder) rules of professional baseball. In there they have numerous case plays where you can learn the rules at your own pace.

Pete Booth

[Viper]

Thanks everyone for the response!

Pete, R3 was standing in the dirt around home plate making no attempt to get back to HP or into the dugout. Just merely standing there.

I figured that I messed up the ruling, but it was a scrimmage at the time and the run did not influence the outcome considering it was a blowout. Either way its not something that I want to get wrong in the future becuase I have dealt with more experienced coaches and know what you are talking about when they will call you out on rulings. You gotta know your stuff!

So its my understanding that the catcher running over to tag R3 was considered an appeal? And what I should have done was looked at the catcher and asked if he was appealing R3 touching HP?

Thanks again guys.

[PeteBooth]

name='Viper' timestamp='1306442159' post='54197']

So its my understanding that the catcher running over to tag R3 was considered an appeal? And what I should have done was looked at the catcher and asked if he was appealing R3 touching HP?

Thanks again guys.

No F2 does not have to say anything to you because HIS actions dicated what he was doing. In other words this was an unmistakable appeal and therefore, no need for F2 to say anything. It's similar to the following:

R1 off with the pitch and B1 hits a liner right to F3 who catches the ball and steps on first base for the DP. That is an appeal but the player does not have to say anything.

pete Booth

[ukce1861]

So its my understanding that the catcher running over to tag R3 was considered an appeal? And what I should have done was looked at the catcher and asked if he was appealing R3 touching HP?

An appeal must be unmistakeable (e.g. it can't be accidental, like a catcher stepping on home plate as he throws the ball back to the pitcher). This is pretty unmistakeable in my book, unless he was tagging everybody in sight. That being said, you should never "coach" the players as to what they are appealing. If they throw the ball to a base and just stand there (or tag a runner and just look at you), you can ask if they're appealing, and if so, what but don't ask, "Are you appealing that runner X missed base Y?" They could be appealing a different runner if they're on a base or they could be appealing a different base if they're tagging a runner. Too many variables, and you don't want to help them out.

Also, remember in LL, the ball must be live for them to appeal.

[mstaylor]

Also, he mention he wasn't trying to touch the plate. Once the runner behind him scored the R3 can't fix his mistake.