Batting Out of Order

[ukce1861]

So my son’s coaches allowed yet another batting out of order (we’ve had at least three this season) last night. I’m the scorekeeper; here’s the situation. The #9 batter leads off the inning in the 7-spot. B9 walks. B8 comes up to bat. B8 strikes out. B7 comes up to bat. B7 strikes out. B1 comes up to bat. Pitcher throws one pitch to B1. Defensive manager comes out to appeal the BOO. At this point, the proper batter is B8, right? There is no out here, just B8 takes B1’s place in the box, assuming the count? And then, should B8 get on base, the proper batter would be B9, but if he’s already on base he’s skipped, correct? I think I’ve got all that figured out, but I wanted to play with a couple of hypotheticals.

Suppose, if after B9 walked, B8 and B7 were to reach base (Bases loaded). Then, after one pitch to B1, the defensive manager appeals. The proper batter is B8 - who is skipped because he’s on base, so you’d go to B9, who is also skipped, so you keep B1, correct?

Now, suppose after B8 struck out, B7 reached base. Then, the defensive manager appeals the BOO. At this point, B9 was the proper batter, so he is called out. But since he’s on base, is he removed from the bases as well?

The really stupid part is, I found out after the game that the coaches realized almost immediately (before B9 took a pitch) they were batting out of order but didn’t want to say anything because they thought he would be out. So instead they just compounded the problem…

[Rich Ives]

So my son’s coaches allowed yet another batting out of order (we’ve had at least three this season) last night. I’m the scorekeeper; here’s the situation. The #9 batter leads off the inning in the 7-spot. B9 walks. B8 comes up to bat. B8 strikes out. B7 comes up to bat. B7 strikes out. B1 comes up to bat. Pitcher throws one pitch to B1. Defensive manager comes out to appeal the BOO. At this point, the proper batter is B8, right? There is no out here, just B8 takes B1’s place in the box, assuming the count? And then, should B8 get on base, the proper batter would be B9, but if he’s already on base he’s skipped, correct? I think I’ve got all that figured out, but I wanted to play with a couple of hypotheticals.

Suppose, if after B9 walked, B8 and B7 were to reach base (Bases loaded). Then, after one pitch to B1, the defensive manager appeals. The proper batter is B8 - who is skipped because he’s on base, so you’d go to B9, who is also skipped, so you keep B1, correct?

Now, suppose after B8 struck out, B7 reached base. Then, the defensive manager appeals the BOO. At this point, B9 was the proper batter, so he is called out. But since he’s on base, is he removed from the bases as well?

The really stupid part is, I found out after the game that the coaches realized almost immediately (before B9 took a pitch) they were batting out of order but didn’t want to say anything because they thought he would be out. So instead they just compounded the problem…

The sub-title said LL Minors.

Stuff happens in minors. It's a learning experience for all - including the coaches and umpires.

Your analysis is basically correct.

If it's really happening that frequently some training is in order.

Step 1: POST the batting order so the kids can see it. Print in in big letters , clip it on a clipboard, and hang up the clipboard on the fence in the dugout near the bat rack.. You have to use CBO in minors so it will not change during the game.

Step 2: POST the batting order.

Setp 3: Have a way of marking who bats first next inning and POST it on the batting order board next to their name..

Step 4: POST the batting order - or did I say that already.

AND, BTW they do this in pro ball including MLB - it's something you should get in the habit of doing.

[TNCoach]

As a coach, I have my lineup posted and I have the opposing team's lineup card in my pocket, checking it regularly. I want my scorekeeper telling me the other team is batting out of order as soon as it is noticed. I won't say anything about it unless and until the improper batter reaches base. If the improper batter strikes out, so be it. We got the out. If they reach base, then I pop out of the dugout immediately to get the batting out of order out. I have never understood a coach letting the umpire know immediately since the proper batter is then allowed at the plate. If you wait, you have the sure out. Just don't allow the next pitch after the at bat is finalized.

I am interested in the answer to the hypotheticals because I never allow them to get that far. Does the at-bat follow whoever is after the person who just previously batted (ie B1 should be up, but B2 bats... so should B3 then be the correct batter since he is after B2, or should the correct batter be B2 since that is now the correct spot that should be up?)?

[Rich Ives]

As a coach, I have my lineup posted and I have the opposing team's lineup card in my pocket, checking it regularly. I want my scorekeeper telling me the other team is batting out of order as soon as it is noticed. I won't say anything about it unless and until the improper batter reaches base. If the improper batter strikes out, so be it. We got the out. If they reach base, then I pop out of the dugout immediately to get the batting out of order out. I have never understood a coach letting the umpire know immediately since the proper batter is then allowed at the plate. If you wait, you have the sure out. Just don't allow the next pitch after the at bat is finalized.

I am interested in the answer to the hypotheticals because I never allow them to get that far. Does the at-bat follow whoever is after the person who just previously batted (ie B1 should be up, but B2 bats... so should B3 then be the correct batter since he is after B2, or should the correct batter be B2 since that is now the correct spot that should be up?)?

KISS: The batter that should have batted is out, then the batter following him is now up.

[ukce1861]

KISS: The batter that should have batted is out, then the batter following him is now up.

Rich, I understand it's typically that simple, but in this case, it became much more complex... What about the the second hypothetical, with B9 being called out for BOO, but being on base? Is he left on base or removed?

[Rich Ives]

KISS: The batter that should have batted is out, then the batter following him is now up.

Rich, I understand it's typically that simple, but in this case, it became much more complex... What about the the second hypothetical, with B9 being called out for BOO, but being on base? Is he left on base or removed?

If the "required" batter is on base you skip him and go to the next one. Just like you figured out on the other example.

[ukce1861]

If the "required" batter is on base you skip him and go to the next one. Just like you figured out on the other example.

Understood. But I'm not sure you're following me completely. Let me break it down a little more. B9 bats in B7's spot and walks. B8 comes up next and strikes out. B7 comes to bat and strikes out. The first pitch to B7 legalizes B8's time at bat, meaning the proper batter was B9. If the defensive manager appeals the BOO after B7 completes his turn at bat, B9 should be called out. My question is, since B9 is already on base, would he be removed from the base as well or just called out and left on base?

Or, since B9 is already on base, is B1 the proper batter who is called out? :confused:

[mstaylor]

No, because the proper batter is on base he is skipped and you go to B1, he's out so B2 is next. At that point the entire coaching staff needs to run poles for letting it get that far.

[ukce1861]

No, because the proper batter is on base he is skipped and you go to B1, he's out so B2 is next. At that point the entire coaching staff needs to run poles for letting it get that far.

Well, we were one pitch away from that happening on Monday. If the DM hadn't been so dimwitted as to think you appeal after the next pitch, that's where we would've been.

[Rich Ives]

If the "required" batter is on base you skip him and go to the next one. Just like you figured out on the other example.

Understood. But I'm not sure you're following me completely. Let me break it down a little more. B9 bats in B7's spot and walks. B8 comes up next and strikes out. B7 comes to bat and strikes out. The first pitch to B7 legalizes B8's time at bat, meaning the proper batter was B9. If the defensive manager appeals the BOO after B7 completes his turn at bat, B9 should be called out. My question is, since B9 is already on base, would he be removed from the base as well or just called out and left on base?

Or, since B9 is already on base, is B1 the proper batter who is called out?

You're makiing this way too hard . . . . it isn't.

[Rich Ives]

No, because the proper batter is on base he is skipped and you go to B1, he's out so B2 is next. At that point the entire coaching staff needs to run poles for letting it get that far.

Well, we were one pitch away from that happening on Monday. If the DM hadn't been so dimwitted as to think you appeal after the next pitch, that's where we would've been.

When you appeal it and IF you appeal it depends on what will happen if you do appeal it. There are times when you just want to let it slide.

[ukce1861]

You're makiing this way too hard . . . . it isn't.

Wouldn't be the first time... This is how I seem to operate; ask stupid questions over and over, even though the answer's right in my face. And then - finally - a light bulb goes off and I get it... Better to do it here than on the field, right? Thanks for the continued responses - even if you are just saying the same thing.

When you appeal it and IF you appeal it depends on what will happen if you do appeal it. There are times when you just want to let it slide.

True. But this is LL, you know how coaches can be. I've seen BOO appealed 5 times in my umpiring tenure. Twice it was just an unannounced sub, twice they did it while the improper batter was at bat (and got mad when I wouldn't give them an out), and now after a pitch so he couldn't get an out. They're not exactly expert at playing this to their advantage...

[mstaylor]

You're makiing this way too hard . . . . it isn't.

Wouldn't be the first time... This is how I seem to operate; ask stupid questions over and over, even though the answer's right in my face. And then - finally - a light bulb goes off and I get it... Better to do it here than on the field, right? Thanks for the continued responses - even if you are just saying the same thing.

When you appeal it and IF you appeal it depends on what will happen if you do appeal it. There are times when you just want to let it slide.

True. But this is LL, you know how coaches can be. I've seen BOO appealed 5 times in my umpiring tenure. Twice it was just an unannounced sub, twice they did it while the improper batter was at bat (and got mad when I wouldn't give them an out), and now after a pitch so he couldn't get an out. They're not exactly expert at playing this to their advantage...

Well said. I have had several permutations of enforcement, mostly just change batters and yes they don't understand why no out. I have had an out and I have had them wait too long. I have never had one get far enough that the legal batter is on base.

[TBrown]

True. But this is LL, you know how coaches can be. I've seen BOO appealed 5 times in my umpiring tenure. Twice it was just an unannounced sub, twice they did it while the improper batter was at bat (and got mad when I wouldn't give them an out), and now after a pitch so he couldn't get an out. They're not exactly expert at playing this to their advantage...

I was doing a LL Juniors game that we had a BOT situation in a few weeks ago. B9 should lead off the inning, but B1 bats instead. B1 strikes out and then DC appeals the BOT. I call B9 out and bring B1 up to bat. DC "Why does their leadoff batter get to bat twice? BOO is supposed to result in a penalty for them." Yes coach, the penalty is an out - for the proper batter. You shouldn't have said anything. He couldn't comprehend why the leadoff hitter "got 2 chances" even when I explained that the proper batter is called out (B9) and then we bring up the next batter (B1). When B1 came back up as the proper batter, he hit a double into the outfield.