Special Pinch Runner

[Uncle Bill]

Little League Juniors (13-14 years old).  .  In our area the juniors are all interleague play and is more like sandlot.  Manager replaces R1 with a special pinch (courtesy) runner,  Rule 7.14 .   R1 steals 2nd, 3rd and then comes home on a passed ball.  It is then discovered that the runner was in the line up.  It gets a little testy between managers.  Of course the runner was the fastest player on his team.  PU working solo.  His solution is for the offending manager to apologize and play on.  Apparently at his plate meeting he announced he was there to call balls and strikes, and the managers would have to police their game (including reporting their subs directly to the official scorer).  Like I said, juniors can really be sandlot. 

A simple "coach, is your runner coming off the bench?" would have caught the violation before it occurred.  My question is what do you do with this.  It was discovered after the illegal runner scored and before the next batter.  When the umpire told me the situation I said I would have fallen back on  9.01(c),  called the runner out and taken the run off the board.  Then bent the manager's ear a bit.  His argument was once the 1st pitch was thrown he was no longer an illegal special runner.  My view was because he was in the line up he continued to be illegal even after the next pitch.  He was mixing in the not batting in proper order rules to fit his argument.

Any thoughts or opinions? 

 

   

[webspinnre]

I posted a similar question recently:
 

 

The SPR rule has the potential for all kinds of issues.

 

[Jimurray]

Little League Juniors (13-14 years old).  .  In our area the juniors are all interleague play and is more like sandlot.  Manager replaces R1 with a special pinch (courtesy) runner,  Rule 7.14 .   R1 steals 2nd, 3rd and then comes home on a passed ball.  It is then discovered that the runner was in the line up.  It gets a little testy between managers.  Of course the runner was the fastest player on his team.  PU working solo.  His solution is for the offending manager to apologize and play on.  Apparently at his plate meeting he announced he was there to call balls and strikes, and the managers would have to police their game (including reporting their subs directly to the official scorer).  Like I said, juniors can really be sandlot. 

A simple "coach, is your runner coming off the bench?" would have caught the violation before it occurred.  My question is what do you do with this.  It was discovered after the illegal runner scored and before the next batter.  When the umpire told me the situation I said I would have fallen back on  9.01(c),  called the runner out and taken the run off the board.  Then bent the manager's ear a bit.  His argument was once the 1st pitch was thrown he was no longer an illegal special runner.  My view was because he was in the line up he continued to be illegal even after the next pitch.  He was mixing in the not batting in proper order rules to fit his argument.

Any thoughts or opinions? 

The tournament FAQs usually address this every year. The ruling should also apply to regular season. Every effort should be made to avoid illegal subs. So, scorekeeper, umpire, other manager should catch this and prevent it. If not caught there is no penalty and all actions by the illegal sub count. 

   

 

[Rich Ives]

The LL solution to an improper sub is to replace him upon discovery. It is protestable. Protest committee decides the result.

Why didn't the defense notice the improper sub at the time it was made? To me it's just as much on them.

 

[Jimurray]

The LL solution to an improper sub is to replace him upon discovery. It is protestable. Protest committee decides the result.

Why didn't the defense notice the improper sub at the time it was made? To me it's just as much on them.

 

4. Improper substitution is a basis for protest. Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered.  

[Jimurray]

4. Improper substitution is a basis for protest. Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered.  

Had to quote my post to get out of the formatting. A protest is only allowed at the point of the substitution. After a pitch or play the results of the sub are legal and and the only remedy is replacing the sub if it is caught. 

[Rich Ives]

4. Improper substitution is a basis for protest. Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered.  

​I cannot find any such wording in the LL rules. Where did you find it?

The only place in LL rules where the " . . not resolved before . . " condition applies in any protest situation is in the tournament rules. It does not appear in the regular season rules.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Rich Ives

[Jimurray]

 

​I cannot find any such wording in the LL rules. Where did you find it?

The only place in LL rules where the " . . not resolved before . . " condition applies in any protest situation is in the tournament rules. It does not appear in the regular season rules.

That is correct. I would assume it would apply in regular season since protests involving illegal subs are not adressed in the rulebook. Unless you would address them under playing rules and then the same restriction would apply.

[Rich Ives]

That is correct. I would assume it would apply in regular season since protests involving illegal subs are not addressed in the rulebook. Unless you would address them under playing rules and then the same restriction would apply.

​Tournament rules do not apply in regular season. That's why they are separate. The rule you quoted seems to be T-Rule 10(f ) in the 2015 book. It's been 10(f ) at least as far back as 2010.

In the tournament all playing rule protests must be resolved before the next pitch or play because there isn't time to go through a protest-finish the game-hear the protest-replay if necessary process and re-do a game. The regular season protest rule (4.19) has no such "immediate" requirement.

While you are at it read 4.19(d ).

Edited May 13, 2015 by Rich Ives

[Jimurray]

​Tournament rules do not apply in regular season. That's why they are separate. The rule you quoted seems to be T-Rule 10(f ) in the 2015 book. It's been 10(f ) at least as far back as 2010.

In the tournament all playing rule protests must be resolved before the next pitch or play because there isn't time to go through a protest-finish the game-hear the protest-replay if necessary process and re-do a game. The regular season protest rule (4.19) has no such "immediate" requirement.

While you are at it read 4.19(d ).

​I have read it and I believe an ineligible player does not include a substitute as evidenced by the definition of such in Rule 2.00. In fact, the T-rules also address "ineliglble players" and also address illegal subs. That being said, in the regular season, as evidenced by the OP, with lax attention or knowledge of the participants, a knowing coach could take advantage and gain advantage. Example: Starter re-enters too early and opposing coach says he can't do that. Ump has no clue and coach protests. Game continues and protest is ruled on correctly, I hope, later on. Same sit but before coach protests starter hits HR. Coach protests but it's too late. It would be too late in the tournament but in regular season maybe you would want to accept protest. Of course, this happening in tournament would be (very possible, possible, unlikely, highly unlikely).

[Rich Ives]

​I have read it and I believe an ineligible player does not include a substitute as evidenced by the definition of such in Rule 2.00. In fact, the T-rules also address "ineliglble players" and also address illegal subs. That being said, in the regular season, as evidenced by the OP, with lax attention or knowledge of the participants, a knowing coach could take advantage and gain advantage. Example: Starter re-enters too early and opposing coach says he can't do that. Ump has no clue and coach protests. Game continues and protest is ruled on correctly, I hope, later on. Same sit but before coach protests starter hits HR. Coach protests but it's too late. It would be too late in the tournament but in regular season maybe you would want to accept protest. Of course, this happening in tournament would be (very possible, possible, unlikely, highly unlikely).

​If the starter reenters too early then you remove him and replace him with an eligible sub. The starter has thus also used his reentry and cannot ever reenter. You can protest at that point if you wish. If the player starter was not removed as he should have been the protest should be upheld and the committee decides on how to remedy it. No different than any other protest.

 

From the LL Rules Instruction Manual:

Umpires are responsible for not allowing a starter to re-enter the game illegally. If a situation exists where a starter has re-entered too soon and it is not discovered until play has resumed, we have a possible protest. If discovered then, the re-entering starter is removed (since he/she re- entered improperly), the substitute has already left the game (albeit improperly) and the re-entering starter cannot return again in the game (since he/she already re-entered, improperly). The manager has “burned” two players when the umpire could have stopped it.

[Jimurray]

​If the starter reenters too early then you remove him and replace him with an eligible sub. The starter has thus also used his reentry and cannot ever reenter. You can protest at that point if you wish. If the player starter was not removed as he should have been the protest should be upheld and the committee decides on how to remedy it. No different than any other protest.

 

From the LL Rules Instruction Manual:

Umpires are responsible for not allowing a starter to re-enter the game illegally. If a situation exists where a starter has re-entered too soon and it is not discovered until play has resumed, we have a possible protest. If discovered then, the re-entering starter is removed (since he/she re- entered improperly), the substitute has already left the game (albeit improperly) and the re-entering starter cannot return again in the game (since he/she already re-entered, improperly). The manager has “burned” two players when the umpire could have stopped it.

​So, a starter re-enters too early, gets on base, and a pitch is hit for a HR. The defense then protests that the starter was an illegal sub (which is not the same as an illegal player). What do you have in regular season and tournament.

Or a starter re-enters too early and after the first pitch hits a HR. Same question.

[Rich Ives]

​So, a starter re-enters too early, gets on base, and a pitch is hit for a HR. The defense then protests that the starter was an illegal sub (which is not the same as an illegal player). What do you have in regular season and tournament.

Or a starter re-enters too early and after the first pitch hits a HR. Same question.

​You remove the starter and the offended manager can then protest if he wishes. His choice. No one else's.

If he doesn't protest play on and there is no looking back.

If the manager protests the protest committee decides.

In regular season you play on under protest and the decision comes later.

In the tournament you suspend play, make the phone calls, and the tournament committee decides.

[Jimurray]

​You remove the starter and the offended manager can then protest if he wishes. His choice. No one else's.

If he doesn't protest play on and there is no looking back.

If the manager protests the protest committee decides.

In regular season you play on under protest and the decision comes later.

In the tournament you suspend play, make the phone calls, and the tournament committee decides.

​

In the regular season I see nothing which would allow a protest after a pitch or play. But a local league such as yours that wanted to hear a protest and correct an inequity might be able to do it.

In the tournament a protest involving an illegal sub must take place before the next pitch or play. Basically, if a sub is made and the legality is disputed it must be done at that time and can go to the tournament committee.
However a de facto protest is possible since a coach, noticing the illegal sub after a pitch or play can still stop playing until his protest is ruled on to his satisfaction. He would be shown the tournament FAQ:
"38. All Divisions: In the third inning the defensive manager enters #35 into the game for #10. In the fifth inning the same manager re-enters #10 back into the game for #35. Then in the sixth inning the manager now wants to enter #35 into the game for #55 at second base. Can he legally do this?
A: This would be considered an improper substitution and cannot be allowed to happen. The umpires, scorekeepers, game officials all should not allow this to happen. Player #35 cannot re-enter in a different batting spot in the lineup, he/she is “tied” to his/her original spot in the order. Remember that an improper substitution is basis for a protest, but will not result in a forfeit. The solution is to correct the situation, and play on. All actions by the substitute up to that point are legal. (Substitutions, Baseball page T-19. Softball, page T-17)"

If that did not satisfy him the call would go up the line and they would rule as in the FAQ, replace the sub and no further action.

[Rich Ives]

​

In the regular season I see nothing which would allow a protest after a pitch or play. But a local league such as yours that wanted to hear a protest and correct an inequity might be able to do it.

In the tournament a protest involving an illegal sub must take place before the next pitch or play. Basically, if a sub is made and the legality is disputed it must be done at that time and can go to the tournament committee.
However a de facto protest is possible since a coach, noticing the illegal sub after a pitch or play can still stop playing until his protest is ruled on to his satisfaction. He would be shown the tournament FAQ:
"38. All Divisions: In the third inning the defensive manager enters #35 into the game for #10. In the fifth inning the same manager re-enters #10 back into the game for #35. Then in the sixth inning the manager now wants to enter #35 into the game for #55 at second base. Can he legally do this?
A: This would be considered an improper substitution and cannot be allowed to happen. The umpires, scorekeepers, game officials all should not allow this to happen. Player #35 cannot re-enter in a different batting spot in the lineup, he/she is “tied” to his/her original spot in the order. Remember that an improper substitution is basis for a protest, but will not result in a forfeit. The solution is to correct the situation, and play on. All actions by the substitute up to that point are legal. (Substitutions, Baseball page T-19. Softball, page T-17)"

If that did not satisfy him the call would go up the line and they would rule as in the FAQ, replace the sub and no further action.

​STOP APPLYING THE TOURNAMENT PROTEST RULE TO REGULAR SEASON GAMES!

An improper sub can be protested at the time of discovery.

 

[Jimurray]

​STOP APPLYING THE TOURNAMENT PROTEST RULE TO REGULAR SEASON GAMES!

An improper sub can be protested at the time of discovery.

 

​I don't see where they allow a protest after a pitch or play but if you do allow a protest would the remedy be a rollback of the game to where the improper sub had an effect on the outcome?