TOP or TOT

[poppyfor3]

LL Majors. R3 and R1. BU in C. High chopper to F6. I watch R3 touch home and see B1 beat throw by a mile. Throw goes into DBT. BU watching B1--nobody to watch R1 into 2nd. Went with TOP as we had no info on R1. Inherent problem with 2 man or could we as a team done better??? Jack

[BrianC14]

LL Majors. R3 and R1. BU in C. High chopper to F6. I watch R3 touch home and see B1 beat throw by a mile. Throw goes into DBT. BU watching B1--nobody to watch R1 into 2nd. Went with TOP as we had no info on R1. Inherent problem with 2 man or could we as a team done better??? Jack

Doesn't matter, as it's TOP... first play by the infielder.

[poppyfor3]

Brian, as I understand the rule, IF all runners have advanced 1 base the award is 2 bases from TOT even on the first play--hence the question. Jack

[jnazz]

TOP always on the first play by an infielder. No exception. That makes the call easy and you don't have to worry about where runners were at TOT.

Now I don't work LL so I'm just going by OBR.

[Mr Umpire]

TOP always on the first play by an infielder. No exception. That makes the call easy and you don't have to worry about where runners were at TOT.

Now I don't work LL so I'm just going by OBR.

Not entirely true. It depends on where the BR was when the throw was made. If he is past 1B before the throw is made, then it is TOT. If the throw is made before BR reaches 1B (which should always be the case unless it is a really slow play), then it is TOP. The only one that matters is BR when it is the first play by an infielder.

First play by infielder:

BR beyond 1B at TOT = 2 bases from TOT

BR not beyond 1B at TOT = 2 bases from TOP

[poppyfor3]

Rule 7.05 says ALL runners must advance 1 base for TOT. Re-read my first post. We didn't see R1 beat the throw to first while reaching 2nd. My question remains---COULD WE HAVE DONE ANYTHING BETTER?? Jump in if you can help.

[mstaylor]

Rule 7.05 says ALL runners must advance 1 base for TOT. Re-read my first post. We didn't see R1 beat the throw to first while reaching 2nd. My question remains---COULD WE HAVE DONE ANYTHING BETTER?? Jump in if you can help.

Technically with a ball to the infield the BU has both runners but as the PU you shouldn't be watching the runner at first, you should watch the touch at second. With the throw going to first the BU can't see any action happening with the lead runner, including the problem you had and a possible obsyruction at second. The play at third is still going to be his but you can certainly help him. If there is any doubt then go with TOP. That's going to be correct 99.9% of the time.

All that said, MRump is correct about the exception going to TOT.

[jnazz]

Not entirely true. It depends on where the BR was when the throw was made. If he is past 1B before the throw is made, then it is TOT. If the throw is made before BR reaches 1B (which should always be the case unless it is a really slow play), then it is TOP. The only one that matters is BR when it is the first play by an infielder.

First play by infielder:

BR beyond 1B at TOT = 2 bases from TOT

BR not beyond 1B at TOT = 2 bases from TOP

Ok, makes sense. Just a play you probably might see once a decade or so (throwing after the runner has already reached first)

[BrianC14]

That's either one really fast B/R, or one very slow (as in dense) fielder, to have thrown the ball to first in an attempt to get B/R out AFTER the B/R has already arrived. :shakehead:

[MCLEOD36]

It is TOP. It if the first play by a fielder, thus TOP. The only exception is if all runners have advanced one base including the BR, thus if the guy made home (you have him advancing) and if the BR did make it to first, he has advanced. The only issue is, it is the time of the throw, which PU is looking for the overthrow after the touch at home and BU is watching the ball. Like MS said, it is hard watching everything and as Bri said, the sitch were you have lightening as a BR or a very slow play.

So, in the exception, you better be really good to call TOT

[BrianC14]

It is TOP. It if the first play by a fielder, thus TOP. The only exception is if all runners have advanced one base including the BR, thus if the guy made home (you have him advancing) and if the BR did make it to first, he has advanced. The only issue is, it is the time of the throw, which PU is looking for the overthrow after the touch at home and BU is watching the ball. Like MS said, it is hard watching everything and as Bri said, the sitch were you have lightening as a BR or a very slow play.

So, in the exception, you better be really good to call TOT

And to further add to the issues surrounding a play like this, there are plenty of RATS out there that think their runners and B/Rs should get two bases from the time when the ball enters DBT. :shakehead:

[PeteBooth]

LL Majors. R3 and R1. BU in C. High chopper to F6. I watch R3 touch home and see B1 beat throw by a mile. Throw goes into DBT. BU watching B1--nobody to watch R1 into 2nd. Went with TOP as we had no info on R1. Inherent problem with 2 man or could we as a team done better??? Jack

This is a mechanics problem and should be covered in Pre-game.

I watch R3 touch home and see B1 beat throw by a mile. Throw goes into DBT. BU watching B1--nobody to watch R1 into 2nd.

The aforementioned is a BIG problem. You could have more problems on your hand then deciding TOP vs. TOT if R1 INTERFERED with somebody.

You said NO ONE was watching R1. Did R1 Touch second base? Did R1 interfere or was R1 obstructed. if "something" did happen your crew could have been "burned" BIG time.

I realize you asked about TOP or TOT however, I was concentraing on the mechanics and the fact that no one was wacthing R1 or the 'action" around second base.

Generally speaking in a 2 person system one umpire has the ball and the other umpire watches the runner(s).

If the BU is watching the BR then the PU should take the lead runner. No need for BOTH of you to watch the BR.

To answer your question use the default - TOP but be ready to answer the question from the coach when he inquires about R1 and do not say " Skip I had no clue where R1 was"

Sounds like you and your partner need some additional mechanics training as the scenario you posted especially in LL majors happens quite frequently.

Pete Booth

[poppyfor3]

Thanks, Pete. That was the answer I was looking for. As I look back at this particular play, I expected F6 to go to 2nd. He hesitated, waiting for F4 to cover, then changed his mind and launched a throw into the next county. Caught me completely off guard. I followed the throw as did my partner. I made a mistake and now know better. Again, thanks for your help. Jack