umped up

Actually, that's not even a balk. If he's in the "stretch" position and not the "set" position, there was nothing wrong with this. The coach said he does this every time in the stretch position and this was the first time "ever" he's been called on it. If he's in the stretch position and he goes to adjust his cap, is that a balk? As long as there's no intent to decieve the runner (your judgement obviously) in that situation. Well since we are talking apples and Oranges.. technically there is not "stretch" position... the "Set" is commonly known as the Stretch... And if we were working together and you did the stuff in the OP too me, we would have a really good post game talk. guys on here are tough, but they will not talk trash to you, they are not gonna pat your back when you did something wrong ( like some clinics will do, or evaluators ) ...keep working, learn for the mistakes, and try not to make them again. As for the coaches, they do not like umpires, you might think they do, but they dont.. maybe when there winning, but if 1 things goes wrong, they are all over you.. coaches and players are RATS.. they need us, but treat umpires like crap, and the umpires are the ones to police the games.. ( bench jockying ) same with catchers, you think the catcher likes you, but go ahead and miss one, and see if he doesnt tell his coach... Players and coaches will turn on you in a New York minute.. thats the way it has been and will be. Haven't heard of the stretch and set being called the same thing. It obviously makes a difference in which stance you are in given things you can and can't do in each stance. In one, I call the stretch, you can turn your shoulders to look at first, adjust your cap, etc but not the other. I would have appreciated a post game. Thanks for the input. Good stuff.

I played different positions throughout my career. Most of my experience is probably SS and 3b. I caught for about 3 years and played CF for about 5yrs. I'm now back at 3b. I don't have any issues now while umpiring with my baseball instincts taking over, if anything, it's the other way around. I was catching last year for a couple of games, there was a runner and 1st. The batter get a base hit and I found myself running to 3rd, I got about halfway there and I'm thinking, "what in the hell am I doing"? I don't think anyone noticed that the catcher was abandoning his position. I find catching to be more difficult than any of the other positions as far as my umpiring carrying over to my play.

Now that, I can work with. But now my question is, how can you see this from the B or C slot? You cant. It has to be pretty obvious if they can see it from there and then, Im sure the PU would see that one. Thanks for the explanation. You played baseball and Im sure you had an opinion on every check swing whether you were at first second left field or the dugout. Its the same for the umpire except now you get paid to make that decision and yours is the only vote that counts. Im glad to have you as an umpire but you need to drop your player thoughts to be a good umpire (and Im sure theres a better way of putting that) I hear ya. You should have seen my strike zone when I first started umpiring. I called it like I was still a hitter. Pretty darn tight. I didn't even realize until someone told me I was doing that. It was hard for me to call a strike off the plate or in off the plate when I didn't think it was. Of course in time I got much much better at calling a couple balls off the plate. Another thing that was wierd innitially was my very first game ever as an umpire. For 36 years my instinct was to get the ball wherever it was hit. I remember my first couple of plays, I felt myself going towards the ball instead going to where I was supposed to go. This happend just the first few times. Pretty funny actually....

Oh, I definitely learned. I have one more game in April at the college level (unless they schedule me with some make ups). Im working every weekend doing youth tournaments from here on out. I'll be doing older kids, Ban Johnson (college guys), and adult baseball throughout the summer. I'll be getting tons of games in this year at multiple levels.

That'swhat I said. Maybe it takes someone as respected as you to ring the bell. :meditation:

Why? I don't see why. :Cool2:

Good point, I started to mention him but he does a nice job actually talking baseball as long as he stays out of the rules. McGarver can't even do that. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone like Bruce Froemming in the box for an inning going over things. That would be interesting and a great opportunity for fans and players to get the perspective. When I was living in San Franciso, I was working at Sky Park, an indoor parking facility (3 miles north of the airport) It's a total valet system. I had the opportunity to pick up Bruce Froemming from the airport in a nice vehicle of course. On the way back to our facility, we spoke at great lengths about baseball. I was still playing for my future at the time and he was trying to sell me on umpiring. I was like, yeah whatever. He said it was the best thing in the world to do. He talked about all the luxuries and all the spiffs that came with it. " It was a life that was unimaginable ". I got the pleasure to talking with him as the passenger in my car but at the time, I didn't realize what I had sitting next to me. I was 23 at the time and a raging baseball player, not at all interested in umpiring. Now, looking back......WOW. I love his answer when asked about his eyesite: " The sun is 93 million miles away, I can see that ".

Never trust an ex-player at any level knows the rules. True. Now that you say that, I remember on ESPN baseball tonight, Mitch Williams was talking about a situation with a lefty on the mound and Mitch was talking about the 40 degree plane. There is no 40 degree plane in the rule book but here he was on ESPN talking about it. He's a fricken pitcher in MLB and still thought there was one. Good point!

I hear ya. I've been told by others that it shows up the PU. I'm not sold on that train of thought. If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point. And yes, it's all about getting the call right but aren't there exceptions? Easy fix - don't use that mechanic in anything other than 1 man. If you have a partner, give yourself a chance to get a strike even if you didn't think he offered. Great point!

If you believe them when they say that, you have to believe them when they tell you you're horseSH*#. Moral of the story--no matter what a coach says is his opinion of your work, ignore it. Usually, if they tell me that I was HS, I probably knew this before they could tell me. Sometimes a coach will tell you that you are HS because you blew a call, when in fact, all game long, you have made good calls. They just can't let that one go....

I totally respect what you are saying. First of all, I had one partner in this game which in all do respect was pretty much horseSH*# for those two games. The coaches had no problem with me whatsoever with the exception of the way I may have handled the confrontation on the mound. And that was just the visiting coach, the home team coach actually told me, "nice work". It has been an assumption to everyone else on this forum that my partner was upset with me. I have no clue of this. He never showed or said this to me, all I know is that he left the game in a hurry. I would assume because he had two HS games and wanted to get out of there. Like I said, the only thing he could have gotten peaved at me with was me infringing on his argument....that's it. I'm leaving out a very important part here, but not sure if or how I can say it. Just not too sure..... :HS

So then, would the appropriate thing to say as your being appealed to is, "yes he went or yes he offered"?

Not officially. Unless R3 is launched out of a rocket, he'll never beat the play from SS tagging R2. Sorry, I know you said to "humour you", I couldn't resist. :rollinglaugh:

I like that and Thank you. Your was well spent. It's like its the little things in a ball game that will make you win or lose. Just like a marriage, it's the little things that cause a divorce. No need to expound here :big_no

Now that, I can work with. But now my question is, how can you see this from the B or C slot? You cant. It has to be pretty obvious if they can see it from there and then, Im sure the PU would see that one. Thanks for the explanation.

I hear ya. I've been told by others that it shows up the PU. I'm not sold on that train of thought. If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point. And yes, it's all about getting the call right but aren't there exceptions? :HS

I've heard this theory before but I think that leaves a lot of gray area. Every swing starts with a movement. First your weight goes back and then starts forward. A hitter starts to offer at every pitch then stops. Sometimes (a lot of times) the hands will be going forward then stopping. Would you call this an offer? When a hitter is fooled, he will "start" to offer then realize the pitch is going to miss the strike zone and stop. I know as a hitter, I'm always starting to offer until I know it's a ball, then I stop. I'm just not too sure I like the verbage, that's all. You can take every check swing and say, '" well, he offered", of course he did but he stopped. Did he stop in time? That's the question. What is the point we look at to where we can say, " yes, he stopped in time"?

I guess I'm a little confused with the "apparant 4th out? Wouldn't that simply be 3 outs and runner scores assuming no appeal? And in B, defense doesn't appeal, what changes? If the defense does appeal, then no run would score since no runs can score on a force out. What am I missing :ZZZ:

That was the problem, it says nothing about touching home plate from what I could find. It just says the batter is out if he hits the ball while one or both feet are completely out of the batters box. I know somethings gotta be out there concerning the plate, I just haven't found it.

What are you guys looking at when a batter takes a check swing if your are the BU? Sitting in the A slot, are you looking at the bat head, hands (wrist) or the hips? What are you looking for? What would you say about your partner checking you with a RHB and your in the B slot? Or worse yet the C slot. Same as with a LHB? Personally, I never go to him if he's not in the A or D where he can see straight down the line. This is something that before the game, I talk about. If a coach ask me to appeal, I will but the FU will call a no swing. I've seen where an umpire ask for help and it's granted and the FU calles "yes he went" and you can hear all the bellows of, "how in the hell can you see that from that angle". I happen to agree with that. Of course that's being called from either the B or C. Speaking of the coach asking for the appeal, is this something that should always be granted? At this point, I do it solely for courtesy. There are times when the catcher asked and I'll just tell him he didn't go and leave it at that. Correct me if I'm wrong here (like I need to worry about that one) but didn't they change that this year in the 3 man mechanic in college? With a lefty up, they want the appeal to be taken at 3rd and the opposite when a righty batter. Is this because they now want you looking at the hip for rotation and thinks a better view is seen from these positions?

Ok, so I guess it mentions nothing about the plate in that regard In OBR and that's what we play in the MSBL. So the umpire had it wrong with me. I guess I just always believed the myth that a hitter cant switch sides once he has 2 strikes. I have no idea where this came from, I just remember hearing that back when and never thought to check it.

Actally, 2 questions: 1. Is the batter out if he squares to bunt, makes contact and part of his foot is on the plate? I cant find this. I have a book " baseball field guide, an in depth illustrated guide to the complete rules of baseabll " by Dan Formosa & Paul Hamburger. It shows 18 ways a batter is put out and this isn't one of them. The reason I'm asking this was a few years back when I was playing ball in Phoenix, I was called out for this very thing. The tip of my cleat was touching home plate (according to him). I was out. Since I didn't know the rule, I just walked back to the dugout. We had a couple of ex pros on the team and they didn't argue the rule so I just assumed it was so. I was in a small meeting when they handed out a little true false quiz and this was one of the questions. I said "T" but it was False. 2. When can a batter "not" switch in the batters box from L to R? Or can he do this whenever he feels like?

I'm just waiting for someone to say something to me that I can disagree with. Your absolutely right! I like what you said, " you will succeed if you carry yourself like the over-standard umpire that you need to be to succeed at the collegiate level." I know this isn't a cure all but the mangers won't be able to tell as easily until of course something blows up and then you act clueless. I had another umpire tell me that same thing. He did AA ball and now does D-1. He says walk out there like you know wtf is going on and carry yourself like you own this damn field. Confidence not cockiness. Thanks for your input. You've all been extremely helpful in this spanking in which I deserve. :D

Just curious here. What could the umpire have said to have the HM not understand that? If it's a rules thing, is this just a case where the manager didn't agree with the rule? You would think at that level, they would know that one. Or was it the PU attitude? Did you witness this? Yes I did witness it. It was a combination of an idiot manager that wouldn't listen and a young redass umpire. He explained it was one base from the rubber and then just insisted he had it. The manager just wouldn't listen. It was probably fine there but once the runner scored the protest makes no difference. Even if the umpire had been wrong, which he wasn't, the protest wouldn't cause a replay of the game. He should have just let the protest be withdrawn but the redass kicked in and he insisted it had to filed. He found out that was incorrect. Let me ask you this. Does it make your case hold more water to these managers if you can state the rule and it's number? " It states in rule 7.08 © blah, blah, blah. " I just threw a numer out there, I have no idea what it even is.

Just curious here. What could the umpire have said to have the HM not understand that? If it's a rules thing, is this just a case where the manager didn't agree with the rule? You would think at that level, they would know that one. Or was it the PU attitude? Did you witness this?