LL 7.13

[1dumbquestion]

This is a LL only issue so if you do not do LL (and I COMPLETELY understand if you don't) than you may want to disregard this thread entirely. So LL 7.13, between the green book and the RIM (sorry I don't know how to paste from the RIM) it seems that a pitcher simply going to the mound with the ball cannot stop an advancing runner. The "play" I seem to see each spring, and again last night, is with R3,B2 takes ball 4 and sprints off towards 1B with full intention of rounding and going to 2B, of course F2 fire to F1 who runs to the mound to "stop" the BR. usually the BR and F1 reach their destinations about the same time, last night F1 wasvery fast and on the mound well before the BR rounded 1st but the BR continued on to 2nd. I let it go telling the DC that simply having the ball on the mound does not stop a runner when the play was not "relaxed". Anyway, does someone (like RIch Ives) know of an official interp for this common LL issue? Thanks, 1

[Rich Ives]

This is a LL only issue so if you do not do LL (and I COMPLETELY understand if you don't) than you may want to disregard this thread entirely. So LL 7.13, between the green book and the RIM (sorry I don't know how to paste from the RIM) it seems that a pitcher simply going to the mound with the ball cannot stop an advancing runner. The "play" I seem to see each spring, and again last night, is with R3,B2 takes ball 4 and sprints off towards 1B with full intention of rounding and going to 2B, of course F2 fire to F1 who runs to the mound to "stop" the BR. usually the BR and F1 reach their destinations about the same time, last night F1 wasvery fast and on the mound well before the BR rounded 1st but the BR continued on to 2nd. I let it go telling the DC that simply having the ball on the mound does not stop a runner when the play was not "relaxed". Anyway, does someone (like RIch Ives) know of an official interp for this common LL issue? Thanks, 1

You are right.

7.13 can NOT be used to stop a play in progress. From the RIM Instructor's Comments:

When a runner is legitimately off his/her base, the pitcher cannot stop the runner by taking the ball back to the pitcher’s plate.

A runner running the bases is obviously off the base and is a play in progress. I don't think your coach would think he could stop the runner on a batted ball, so why should he think you can stop the runner on a BB?

This should answer the question.

AND, BTW

7.13 requires TWO things

1) The pitcher must have the ball and be on the rubber

AND

2) The catcher must be in the catcher's box ready to receive a pitch - which means all gear on and facing the pitcher. And no, a catcher is NEVER required to squat.

Getting info from the RIM is just a copy/paste like any other

[sdix00]

To add to what Rich said. . . there is nothing to add. Anyone who does is gleaning more than is actually there.

Here is a good article on understanding 7.13:

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/rules/obr/library/rule.cfm/Leaving%20Early%20Before%20the%20Pitch/

[sdix00]

Also -

In reference to your "bane of my LL umpire experience" comment - I believe Little League offers something for any umpire who wants to improve and test himself, even one with lots of experience. The LL culture of daddy coaches and bush ball actually forces an umpire to really understand some of the odd rules. It is in LL where daddy coaches think they can try a "trick play" or take advantages of one of the "40 tenets" (we call them myths). We as LL umpires are constantly called on to explain why the hands are not part of the bat, or why a player can slide in to first base.

My 13 year old son did a LL 10U game last month and the manager called time and asked him to call a runner out who missed 2nd base. My son says "I can't do that without a proper appeal." Just like he was trained to. So the manager tell the pitcher to step off and throw to 2B, which he does. Son says "Coach, that is not a proper appeal." Which is great. Then he said something he should not have, "You can't appeal when Time is out". So the coach hangs his head and goes back to the dugout. Son calls Play, and pitcher pitched the ball. oops. Someone got to the coach later and told him he could have appealed after the umpire called "Play". Manager asked for time again and said "You didn't say I could still appeal!!" He was very, very hot. My son simply looked at him and said "It is not my job to coach you on how to get an out. You have to know" Manager says, "Well, last time the umpire granted an appeal against me when time was out! Who doesn't know the rules now?!" My son looked at him with a smirk and said, "That would be you, still." Yikes.

The point here is, I don't think this exchange happens anywhere other than Little League (or similar league). It tested my son and it forced him to know the rule well enough not to hand over the farm to an uneducated coach. It also forced him to realize that he could have handled it a little better.

It's amazing how much you have to know to work a game where no one else knows much of anything.

Conversely, the games where everyone knows what is going on, seems to rarely require me to go deep into my rules knowledge.

[mtnump]

Good for your son!!! He was correct, confident and businesslike. I love it!!! Some of the adults I work with could use some of his moxy.

[mstaylor]

Also -

In reference to your "bane of my LL umpire experience" comment - I believe Little League offers something for any umpire who wants to improve and test themselves, even ones with lots of experience.

Was there a reference I am missing.

I don't have a problem with your son telling the coach he can't appeal with the ball dead. When the coach came back out probably the best answer is," It is your job to know how to appeal." On his last umpire comment, answer him with," Well, next time you will know to protest." I like his answer but it can blow up on you.

Some of the myths continue right up through the ranks. LL has some specific rules that you need to know and you will see some crazy situations so many times LL can improve your rules knowledge.

[sdix00]

Also -

In reference to your "bane of my LL umpire experience" comment - I believe Little League offers something for any umpire who wants to improve and test themselves, even ones with lots of experience.

Was there a reference I am missing.

I don't have a problem with your son telling the coach he can't appeal with the ball dead. When the coach came back out probably the best answer is," It is your job to know how to appeal." On his last umpire comment, answer him with," Well, next time you will know to protest." I like his answer but it can blow up on you.

Some of the myths continue right up through the ranks. LL has some specific rules that you need to know and you will see some crazy situations so many times LL can improve your rules knowledge.

"bane. . ." It is in the subtitle of the post.

Agreed. However, we train our umpires to avoid protests and never say the P word. Only because, as hard as we try , there are protestable rulings every day in a league with 15-20 games on Saturdays. I tell umpires to say, "I understand you don't agree, coach. We can chat about it between innings. " This gets us to the next pitch or play.

Personally, in my game I have no issues with protests. But I don't even want daddy coaches to know what that word means when dealing with one of my Jr umpires or adult volunteers.

[mstaylor]

Also -

In reference to your "bane of my LL umpire experience" comment - I believe Little League offers something for any umpire who wants to improve and test themselves, even ones with lots of experience.

Was there a reference I am missing.

I don't have a problem with your son telling the coach he can't appeal with the ball dead. When the coach came back out probably the best answer is," It is your job to know how to appeal." On his last umpire comment, answer him with," Well, next time you will know to protest." I like his answer but it can blow up on you.

Some of the myths continue right up through the ranks. LL has some specific rules that you need to know and you will see some crazy situations so many times LL can improve your rules knowledge.

"bane. . ." It is in the subtitle of the post.

Agreed. However, we train our umpires to avoid protests and never say the P word. Only because, as hard as we try , there are protestable rulings every day in a league with 15-20 games on Saturdays. I tell umpires to say, "I understand you don't agree, coach. We can chat about it between innings. " This gets us to the next pitch or play.

Personally, in my game I have no issues with protests. But I don't even want daddy coaches to know what that word means when dealing with one of my Jr umpires or adult volunteers.

I guess I'm missing the reference.

As to protests, why discourage them, I find them a great way to end a discussion. I will discuss a rule then tell them it is time to play. If a coach wants to discuss it anymore, I ask them if they want to protest, if not, let's play. What is the downside, the coach learns something or the umpire does, why is that a problem?

[sdix00]

Also -

In reference to your "bane of my LL umpire experience" comment - I believe Little League offers something for any umpire who wants to improve and test themselves, even ones with lots of experience.

Was there a reference I am missing.

I don't have a problem with your son telling the coach he can't appeal with the ball dead. When the coach came back out probably the best answer is," It is your job to know how to appeal." On his last umpire comment, answer him with," Well, next time you will know to protest." I like his answer but it can blow up on you.

Some of the myths continue right up through the ranks. LL has some specific rules that you need to know and you will see some crazy situations so many times LL can improve your rules knowledge.

"bane. . ." It is in the subtitle of the post.

Agreed. However, we train our umpires to avoid protests and never say the P word. Only because, as hard as we try , there are protestable rulings every day in a league with 15-20 games on Saturdays. I tell umpires to say, "I understand you don't agree, coach. We can chat about it between innings. " This gets us to the next pitch or play.

Personally, in my game I have no issues with protests. But I don't even want daddy coaches to know what that word means when dealing with one of my Jr umpires or adult volunteers.

I guess I'm missing the reference.

As to protests, why discourage them, I find them a great way to end a discussion. I will discuss a rule then tell them it is time to play. If a coach wants to discuss it anymore, I ask them if they want to protest, if not, let's play. What is the downside, the coach learns something or the umpire does, why is that a problem?

Because, with volunteer and Jr umpires, we have enough misapplications of the rules and the board would have to take action for valid protests. As a practical matter, if the manager does not know how to properly lodge a protest, then that's one less thing I have to deal with, as a board member.

I would rather correct the umpires my league less formally.

[mstaylor]

Run it as you see fit but how will you know they kicked something if there are no protests. I understand that young or new umpires will make mistakes but so will the coaches. In HS we require the PU to do a game report of all games. Anything that is odd is supposed to be in there. Even if it is handled perfectly I want to know about it. I have had several games this year that I have been involved with where I have told my partner to make sure they mention in the report. Every time they have asked why. I tell them even if handled correctly it was out of the ordinary so put it in the report. If you want them to do a similar thing it could be helpful to track problems. It may be an umpire problem or coach problem, but better to fix it when it is little rather than later when it blows up.