Had a bad weekend on the field...

[umpire_scott]

Okay guys, lets take a step back, were on the same team here.

Obviously we aren't. I'm not even an umpire, as I was told by an experienced umpire that would know one when he saw one post.

[umpire_scott]

FWIW I e-mailed the UIC's of the two associations I work for out here and this is the first response I got. I've included my e-mail and his reply.

On Jul 13, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Scott Carpenter wrote:

Keith,

This might seem like a strange question, but as a base umpire should I be carrying a plate brush and keeping the bases clean during games? I was on an umpires website and the topic came up and almost every umpire stated that baseball umpires never clean the bases. They effectively said that no self-respecting baseball umpires cleans a base. That I should tell the players to do it. But I wanted to check with you to see what protocol is expected. I umpired a lot of FP back in Phoenix and it's expected that the bases get cleaned between innings.

Thanks.

Scott: To be honest with you, I never carried a plate brush with me when on the bases but have seen a lot of guys do so. It is not mandatory it's just a personal preference. It ultimately will help you when making that tough close play. Sent from my iPhone

Scott

[Texarkana]

Brushing and cleaning bases is a major issue. You do that and I will worry about the minor things like balls and strikes, safe and outs and proper mechanics while umpiring the game. But hey, they bases will be cleaned.

Scott one of the problems I see here is you are disrespecting veteran umpires with some of your comments. These guys have a lot to offer you. If you have almost 100% of high level umpires giving you guidance, why are you battling it. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, kick the gosh dang dirt off the bag and move on with it.

[umpire_scott]

Brushing and cleaning bases is a major issue. You do that and I will worry about the minor things like balls and strikes, safe and outs and proper mechanics while umpiring the game. But hey, they bases will be cleaned.

Scott one of the problems I see here is you are disrespecting veteran umpires with some of your comments. These guys have a lot to offer you. If you have almost 100% of high level umpires giving you guidance, why are you battling it. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, kick the gosh dang dirt off the bag and move on with it.

I appreciate your input. But this type of response is exactly what drives these threads into 8 pages.

With all due respect you seem to be implying that one cannot focus on balls, strikes, safes, outs, and proper mechanics if they are also focused on cleaning the bases. How do those things have anything to do with one another? I can quite efficiently do all of them.

If I have taken the initiative in disrespecting anyone I apologize. I don't want to attempt to go back and read all of my posts to see if that is the case. But my perspective has been that simply disagreeing or questioning them has been likened to disrespecting them. If you look back I'm pretty sure you will see that my disrespect has generally been in retaliation to some sort of snide comment from them, which to me is disrespectful. I've worked with way too many so-called experienced umpires, that were arrogant self-absorbed jerks, to automatically give someone respect just because they rattle off their credentials to me.

If you look most of what I've argued are interpretations and habits. I've not argued rules, except for a few cases where I stated a rule incorrectly and then I acknowledged my mistake.

[umpire_scott]

Brushing and cleaning bases is a major issue. You do that and I will worry about the minor things like balls and strikes, safe and outs and proper mechanics while umpiring the game. But hey, they bases will be cleaned.

Scott one of the problems I see here is you are disrespecting veteran umpires with some of your comments. These guys have a lot to offer you. If you have almost 100% of high level umpires giving you guidance, why are you battling it. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, kick the gosh dang dirt off the bag and move on with it.

Look at the response I got from my UIC. Do you see the difference in that response from the ones I've gotten on this forum? If that would have been the initial response when I questioned the cleaning of bases the thread would have ended several pages ago. But the experienced umpires here seem to get so bent when someone questions them that they can't help themselves but to attempt to put them in their place.

[Jocko]

Woo-sahhh......

Ooohhhhmmmmm..... Ooohhhmmmm......

:shakehead:

[UmpireSam]

Ok this is not at Disney !

ISA Softball Fast Pitch World Series

Between every 1/2 inning 3 person crew

Plate Umpire Cleans Plate

3 base ump cleans Third and pitchers mound

1st base Ump cleans 2nd and first

Lots of times the Ump who had the base call on a slide then would call time and clean the base

Sometimes we have a breakaway base at second and we have to clean and reset it.

We all had brushes

[UmpJM]

Sam,

I understand that it is an accepted practice - in some cases expected - for the base umpires in softball to carry a brush to clean the bases and the pitcher's plate. Seems kind of silly to me, but, when in Rome....

In baseball it is not an accepted practice.

JM

[UmpireSam]

I am trying to figure out why Baseball Umpires bother to even clean off home plate.

Home needs to be spotless, but you could plant tomatoes with the dirt covering second ?

[UmpJM]

Sam,

I know what you mean - there's really no reason to brush home either unless a runner just slid in and it got covered with dirt. I believe it's primarily done as a "courtesy" to the players.

It certainly doesn't need to be spotless. I've never seen a base during a game that had sufficient dirt ( nor moisture, lah me!) to support plant life, and, even if it did, don't see how it could affect properly making a call.

JM

[UmpireSam]

Hey Jm

Yea this is Florida

We do not even call off the 6:30 game for wet fields before 5;45

I have seen soft dirt around second 8 inches deep.

Never mind cleaning the bases I have had to fill in holes after a slide.

Wait till you see a front end loader drop his whole load of all dry and it takes 30 min to find home.

This must be a baseball vs softball thing because I saw the first base Umpire cleaning first base at the Woman's Collage World Series with a brush !

[UmpireSam]

I got this from The Big 12 College Fast Pitch UIC

I have worked many a game in dimly lit fields that you can't see first and third if not wiped free of the grayish colored dirt

[Replacematt]

On higher levels of play the dirt is such that the bases are always visible.

When have you ever umpired a higher level of baseball?

[UMP45]

Matt, ROFLMAO!!

[mstaylor]

HS is as high as I go. I have learned a lot from the guys on this board. You are worrying about too much. I can count the times on one hand where anyone has mentioned cleaning the bases. It's just not that big of an issue. If they do, I tell a player to kick it off. I have never had a player refuse to do so.

As far as a dislodged base it's simple. If the runner is safe, ask him to do it. He will be glad to because you called him safe. If he's out, ask the fielder to do it. He will be glad to because they got the out.

I know the bases are not that big of an issue as far as coaches mentioning it. But I like the bases to be clean. I feel more confident that I will be able to make a good call on a clean base as I can see it better. Now I'm being told that I won't be taken seriously as an umpire if I clean them. I mean read that sentence that I just wrote. Does that not sound utterly absurd to you? You will not be taken seriously as an umpire if you clean a base. You may have the best strike zone, perfect mechanics, and astute judgment, but if you clean a base you suck. What if I'm a really good umpire, but I simply like the field to look nice. I'm supposed to be meticulous about my dress. So coaches and other umpires will lose respect for me if my pants are not pressed or the proper shade of gray, which have NOTHING to do with my ability to call someone safe or out. But if I want to clean a base, which clearly can impact my ability to call someone safe or out, I'm not taken seriously.

Can't you see how crazy that all sounds? And please if you choose to respond address what I'm saying. Don't go off topic and tell me I'm worrying too much, or it doesn't happen that often.

What you have to remember are there are big differences between softball and baseball. In baseball we don't clean bases or pitching rubbers. We don't replace bases that kick loose. If you do you will be perceived as a Smitty. I have said for years that to work at the highest levels you need to do baseball only, or softball only. I know there are guys that do both and are successful but to be really good you have to chose. That is my personal opinion only. In my experience the guys that do both are middle of the road and down in both sports.

In softball you use the strike up strike/out mechanic, clean bases and rubbers, C is much closer to third than baseball,you say dead ball instead of time, and many of the rules are different. In baseball you don't do any of those things, you hammer or point strikes, you stay above the catcher's head height, wear many different colors of shirts, call sttrikes up and show the mechanic at the same time, you call balls, many different things. Using softball mechanics in a baseball game is wrong! Using baseball mechanics in a softball game is also wrong! If you feel it is silly, fine, don't worry about being better. I don't say this to be mean, I say this to be realistic. Confusing mechanics between sports will make a lesser umpire in both sports.

Worrying about what coaches think is none of our business. I am not saying to be antagonistic to coaches but you can't do things based on what they think. Our job is to go out there and arbitrate the game according to the rules. We don't care if making a tough call makes somebody mad, we care that a team does not gain an advantage not intended by the rules. We want to go out there on time, in a good looking uniform and be confident in what we are doing. We are not to go out being arrogant but we also can't go out worrying about what the coach thinks. We go out, do our jobs in a professional manner and let the coaches draw their own conclusions.

[mstaylor]

Hey Jm

Yea this is Florida

We do not even call off the 6:30 game for wet fields before 5;45

I have seen soft dirt around second 8 inches deep.

Never mind cleaning the bases I have had to fill in holes after a slide.

Wait till you see a front end loader drop his whole load of all dry and it takes 30 min to find home.

This must be a baseball vs softball thing because I saw the first base Umpire cleaning first base at the Woman's Collage World Series with a brush !

Sam:

It is a baseball vs softball thing. Two different sports, two different sets of mechanics and expectations of their umpires. I personally think the strike mechanic in softball looks stupid but it is the standard in all of softball, even at the pro level, so in a softball game, it's fine. I absolutely rail at guys that come on a baseball field and use that same mechanic. On the other hand softball umpires will bust an umpire's chops for pointing or hammering strikes in softball. That's fine because it means they are using baseball mechanics on a softball field. Perfectly acceptable in both instances. If you go to a softball clinic and are killing the ball by saying time, the instructors will correct you, it's dead ball. At the same level clinic in baseball if you say dead ball, they will call the instructors together and have a funeral. At the softball WS the umpires will clean bases, it expected. At the baseball WS you will get curcified for doing the same thing.

[UmpireSam]

Go to softball and wait till you see a catcher miss a throw and the live ball, hits the PLATE UMPIRE'S Cooler or Big Gulp Cup on the ground behind home Plate.

I have not done much baseball but in Lakeland Florida the backstop is less than 10 feet behind home plate !

Don't even ask about the "Tree Rule''

[SanDiegoSteve]

I'm still interested what coaches think of this philosophy. Do any umpires know coaches and have insight? I know that when I coached my son's team I would have looked at a BU that never cleaned off bases that needed them as really lazy. If I heard him telling the kid to clean it off, I would probably ask him why should the kid do it, isn't that your job?

Last time I checked I was an umpire, not a groundskeeper.

Fronny, not all of us get to work games that have groundskeepers like the ones you get to work! The major league grounds crews keep the bases spotless and even replace them with fresh ones in the 6th inning. It must be nice to work on fields like that. If I tell a player to "get the base for me," the knuckleheads I umpire for would probably yank it out of the ground and hand it to me. You really have to draw them a diagram to get them to clean off a dirt-covered base.

[umpire_scott]

On higher levels of play the dirt is such that the bases are always visible.

When have you ever umpired a higher level of baseball?

You're right Matt, you never post unneeded sarcasm. You know people don't have to umpire higher level games to watch them, or play in them for that matter.

[carolinablue]

HS is as high as I go. I have learned a lot from the guys on this board. You are worrying about too much. I can count the times on one hand where anyone has mentioned cleaning the bases. It's just not that big of an issue. If they do, I tell a player to kick it off. I have never had a player refuse to do so.

As far as a dislodged base it's simple. If the runner is safe, ask him to do it. He will be glad to because you called him safe. If he's out, ask the fielder to do it. He will be glad to because they got the out.

I know the bases are not that big of an issue as far as coaches mentioning it. But I like the bases to be clean. I feel more confident that I will be able to make a good call on a clean base as I can see it better. Now I'm being told that I won't be taken seriously as an umpire if I clean them. I mean read that sentence that I just wrote. Does that not sound utterly absurd to you? You will not be taken seriously as an umpire if you clean a base. You may have the best strike zone, perfect mechanics, and astute judgment, but if you clean a base you suck. What if I'm a really good umpire, but I simply like the field to look nice. I'm supposed to be meticulous about my dress. So coaches and other umpires will lose respect for me if my pants are not pressed or the proper shade of gray, which have NOTHING to do with my ability to call someone safe or out. But if I want to clean a base, which clearly can impact my ability to call someone safe or out, I'm not taken seriously.

Can't you see how crazy that all sounds? And please if you choose to respond address what I'm saying. Don't go off topic and tell me I'm worrying too much, or it doesn't happen that often.

What you have to remember are there are big differences between softball and baseball. In baseball we don't clean bases or pitching rubbers. We don't replace bases that kick loose. If you do you will be perceived as a Smitty. I have said for years that to work at the highest levels you need to do baseball only, or softball only. I know there are guys that do both and are successful but to be really good you have to chose. That is my personal opinion only. In my experience the guys that do both are middle of the road and down in both sports.

In softball you use the strike up strike/out mechanic, clean bases and rubbers, C is much closer to third than baseball,you say dead ball instead of time, and many of the rules are different. In baseball you don't do any of those things, you hammer or point strikes, you stay above the catcher's head height, wear many different colors of shirts, call sttrikes up and show the mechanic at the same time, you call balls, many different things. Using softball mechanics in a baseball game is wrong! Using baseball mechanics in a softball game is also wrong! If you feel it is silly, fine, don't worry about being better. I don't say this to be mean, I say this to be realistic. Confusing mechanics between sports will make a lesser umpire in both sports.

Worrying about what coaches think is none of our business. I am not saying to be antagonistic to coaches but you can't do things based on what they think. Our job is to go out there and arbitrate the game according to the rules. We don't care if making a tough call makes somebody mad, we care that a team does not gain an advantage not intended by the rules. We want to go out there on time, in a good looking uniform and be confident in what we are doing. We are not to go out being arrogant but we also can't go out worrying about what the coach thinks. We go out, do our jobs in a professional manner and let the coaches draw their own conclusions.

My association has a lot of softball and they are constantly trying to get me to do some but I refuse. I don't know the rules or mechanics so I won't. They say use baseball mechanics but I won't do that either. If I had a desire to learn the right way I would do it but right now I don't.

[umpire_scott]

Hey Jm

Yea this is Florida

We do not even call off the 6:30 game for wet fields before 5;45

I have seen soft dirt around second 8 inches deep.

Never mind cleaning the bases I have had to fill in holes after a slide.

Wait till you see a front end loader drop his whole load of all dry and it takes 30 min to find home.

This must be a baseball vs softball thing because I saw the first base Umpire cleaning first base at the Woman's Collage World Series with a brush !

Sam:

It is a baseball vs softball thing. Two different sports, two different sets of mechanics and expectations of their umpires. I personally think the strike mechanic in softball looks stupid but it is the standard in all of softball, even at the pro level, so in a softball game, it's fine. I absolutely rail at guys that come on a baseball field and use that same mechanic. On the other hand softball umpires will bust an umpire's chops for pointing or hammering strikes in softball. That's fine because it means they are using baseball mechanics on a softball field. Perfectly acceptable in both instances. If you go to a softball clinic and are killing the ball by saying time, the instructors will correct you, it's dead ball. At the same level clinic in baseball if you say dead ball, they will call the instructors together and have a funeral. At the softball WS the umpires will clean bases, it expected. At the baseball WS you will get curcified for doing the same thing.

Oddly I worked today with an umpire that has been doing high school games in Illinois for 8 years. He called "dead ball" several times on hit batters not "time". Is it possible that it's not only a softball/baseball thing, but also maybe a high school and below/higher than high school thing? Or maybe a regional thing even? Not arguing, just asking.

[NCAAump2]

I think it's already been said, but any baseball umpire who has any kind of formal training never says "dead ball."

As far as the brushing the bases and pitchers plate goes, Scott, I think you might be doing it just because you think it makes you look more professional, when (in fact,) it makes you look the opposite. Softball, yeah, you're supposed to clean the pitchers plate every half inning, therefore making it necessary for the BU to carry a plate brush. Do I agree with that procedure? No, When I work softball, do I comply? Absolutely.

I guess my main question for you is why do you feel like you have to do it, instead of asking a player to simply swipe their hands across the bag a couple of times? In my 14 years as an umpire, I've never had a player refuse to clean off a base at ANY LEVEL. Normally, they do it on their own if they can't see it.

Bottom line to me, I guess...cleaning the bases as a BASEBALL BU is not my responsibility, therefore, the players are fully capable of doing it.

[umpire_scott]

I think it's already been said, but any baseball umpire who has any kind of formal training never says "dead ball."

As far as the brushing the bases and pitchers plate goes, Scott, I think you might be doing it just because you think it makes you look more professional, when (in fact,) it makes you look the opposite. Softball, yeah, you're supposed to clean the pitchers plate every half inning, therefore making it necessary for the BU to carry a plate brush. Do I agree with that procedure? No, When I work softball, do I comply? Absolutely.

I guess my main question for you is why do you feel like you have to do it, instead of asking a player to simply swipe their hands across the bag a couple of times? In my 14 years as an umpire, I've never had a player refuse to clean off a base at ANY LEVEL. Normally, they do it on their own if they can't see it.

Bottom line to me, I guess...cleaning the bases as a BASEBALL BU is not my responsibility, therefore, the players are fully capable of doing it.

You are right in that it makes me "feel" more professional. I feel like I'm doing my job in keeping the field not only as close to it's original condition, but also as close to what the higher level fields are. I worked at a field yesterday that was very new and they sued the gravel type dirt. Bases hardly ever got dirty. A quick kick cleared them of anything if they did. If the kids at all levels deserve good umpires then I think they also deserve good playing conditions. I will no longer carry or use a plate brush in baseball, but will simply kick clean the bases. Just because it's not my "responsibility" doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.

[mstaylor]

For some reason that I don't understand softball and baseball guys at the highest levels, the ones that design the mechanics, make a concerted effort to seperate many of the mechanics. For example, in softball you call the strike down, then stand and show the mechanic. In baseball you call balls down, strikes up and with the mechanic. Neither is wrong, just different. If you are around when LL has the WS on TV, watch many of the mechanics and you will see guys doing softball mechanics on baseball. It is wrong and should be discouraged by LL before letting them out of regionals but they don't.

[carolinablue]

I think it's already been said, but any baseball umpire who has any kind of formal training never says "dead ball."

As far as the brushing the bases and pitchers plate goes, Scott, I think you might be doing it just because you think it makes you look more professional, when (in fact,) it makes you look the opposite. Softball, yeah, you're supposed to clean the pitchers plate every half inning, therefore making it necessary for the BU to carry a plate brush. Do I agree with that procedure? No, When I work softball, do I comply? Absolutely.

I guess my main question for you is why do you feel like you have to do it, instead of asking a player to simply swipe their hands across the bag a couple of times? In my 14 years as an umpire, I've never had a player refuse to clean off a base at ANY LEVEL. Normally, they do it on their own if they can't see it.

Bottom line to me, I guess...cleaning the bases as a BASEBALL BU is not my responsibility, therefore, the players are fully capable of doing it.

You are right in that it makes me "feel" more professional. I feel like I'm doing my job in keeping the field not only as close to it's original condition, but also as close to what the higher level fields are. I worked at a field yesterday that was very new and they sued the gravel type dirt. Bases hardly ever got dirty. A quick kick cleared them of anything if they did. If the kids at all levels deserve good umpires then I think they also deserve good playing conditions. I will no longer carry or use a plate brush in baseball, but will simply kick clean the bases. Just because it's not my "responsibility" doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.

I will admit that some of the things that are considered unacceptable has caused me to scratch my head and wonder why. Awhile ago we had a thread on here about calling " foul" and not " foul ball". I was guilty of being one that said " foul ball", I was not aware it wasn't right and even expressed I thought it was a little nitpicky but that being said, I have never called ' foul ball" a single time since reading that because I realize that being professional is not about how you feel or what you think should be done. It is about adhering to the standards that have been developed by experts over many years and many games.