HumblePie

You were right, I was wrong, on the Illegal sub ejection. Plz read my comment on that thread in a few minutes. What casebook play supports having more than one player meeting per inning when it is, in fact, delaying the game? When no other activity is going on that would allow for it?

OK ... so we have a new FED rule ... for addressing "pace of play" concerns ... and they F*&(!ed it up again. EDUCATORS. WOW. NFHS 3-4-6 Each team, when on defense, may be granted not more than one player-to-player meeting during an inning to permit players to confer with defensive personnel. The umpire shall deny any subsequent player-to-player defensive team requests for meetings for that half-inning. So ... Inning 5, F2 confers with F1, F1 throws 4 pitches in the dirt and is pulled. New F1 comes in and crosses up F2 right away. F2 understandably says, "Blue, can I have time?" I'm following the sage advice of Patrick Faerber, and I'm saying, "YES SIR ... Let's go!" I'm walking out to the mound with him, not allowing other infielders to join, and getting the battery on the same page. I have NO IDEA (or concern about) what rule I'm invoking. I can't even invoke OBR 9.01(c), (or now OBR 8.01(c)), or FED 10-2-3(g) ... because there is a rule that says I must disallow the meeting. There will, no doubt, be a test question on it next week. And ya know what's funny? NO HEAD COACH who has a working brain will ever complain about this. HOGWASH. If FED is all about safety ... which includes the catcher and ... well ... ME ... I'm not only allowing the meeting, I'm insisting on it. Mr. Hopkins ... you're better than this ... fix it now. Don't wait until 2027. I'd suggest: INCOMPETENCE ALERT!!!!!! "Due to our committee's not being able to see the forest for the trees, In the name of safety, we have now given all baseball officials the discretion to allow, after a team has used its one allowed player-to-player meeting in an inning, an unlimited number of "battery meetings" which must include at least one umpire (plate or base) and only F1 and F2. If a coach joins for any reason other than injury or illness, this meeting will be charged as a defensive conference."

NFHS 4-4-1e "A game shall be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team: e. willfully and persistently violates any of the rules after being warned by the umpire." Does anyone find it ironic that FED goes through such extreme lengths to explain and enumerate the procedures and penalties for persistently sending players into the game with illegal bats? With no enumerated limit??? 1. Batter is out, restrict coach 2. Batter is out, eject coach 3. Batter is out, eject acting coach 4. Batter is out, eject newer acting coach 5. Batter is out, eject dad who stepped in as newest acting coach 6. Batter is out, eject mom who stepped in as newest newest acting coach 7. Batter is out, eject school librarian/phonix teacher who stepped in as newest newest newest acting coach Several questions on the study guide and test are devoted to handling repeated violations of the illegal bat rule. I've never, in 26 years, had two instances of an illegal bat in the same game. The head coach, if he's worth his salt, is gonna tell his team, "The next one of you who uses an illegal bat, you're running laps for the next 7 days." I have a tool (namely 4-4-1e), that after the second instance of an illegal bat, I will call the player out, eject the coach, and warn the acting coach, "The first may have been accidental ... I don't care if the second one was intentional or accidental, it's GROSS CARELESSNESS either way. One more illegal bat, and the game is forfeited." I would rather have a root canal than have a reputation for having forfeited a Varsity game, but come on ... what is a more blatant act of cheating and "willfully and persistently violating the rules"???

Buzz, You hit the nail on the head with the common sense point. The problem is, common sense is not common. I'm not sure I'm okay with your partners coercing you to take back the ejection of the kid banging the dugout padding. They decided you were using poor judgment. My entire post is about when an Umpire makes an honest mistake ... Some guy dropped an f-bomb from the general direction of the head coach, but another umpire saw and heard that the f-bomb came from a parent. THIS VERY THING HAPPENED TO AARON BOONE A FEW YEARS BACK. Then yes, I'm in the camp that says common sense should prevail, and you can undo your own ejection. Unfortunately, I believe there is an annually debated FED test question that says under no circumstances can an ejection be undone. I've been disappointed in FED for DECADES for having such a concentration of supposed baseball experts, and still The Rules book and Case Book end up with ambiguities and vagueness. And, flat-out mistakes. Errors. There's absolutely no excuse for it. Anyone with an eighth grade education can read in the Case Book that there are times that an Umpire is authorized to restrict a player to the dugout. 3-1-1(f-k) Penalty. Yet, inexplicably, the FED test question (answer) says that an umpire cannot restrict a player to the dugout for an unsportsmanlike act. He can warn or eject, and there is no middle ground. The second glaring example is, when an Illegal Substitute is used (and discovered), the coach is ejected, and the player is RESTRICTED to the dugout.

Agreed. On all accounts. Especially that the rule book is vague. Nothing in that rule book should be vague. It is put together by educators. Please accept my apology, Dawg.

This absolutely does not address the question in my post. Why have you forced me to type out the rule you referenced? 10-1-6 ... The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct is absolute. If I'm the ejector ... and I realize that I erred ... may I undo my ejection? "Absent a rule that says I can't, I can." Yes, I went Theodore Roosevelt there, but it applies.

Okay, but my question is, is there a rule (your case play} in the NFHS books that directly addresses this?

I should have clarified, I'm talking about an Umpire changing his mind after consulting with his partner(s) during that game. The example is, a fan standing next to the dugout yells a profanity at the umpire, who tosses the coach who is standing right next to the individual, and after consulting with his partner, believes that the fan yelled, not the coach. I'm actually not talking about a state level appeals process, which is a horse of a different color.

What is the NFHS Rule Reference that says an ejection may never be overturned under any circumstances?

I have posted a similar post in the past and never gotten a consensus. I want a consensus please. Any or all rule sets please. Pitch comes inside, batter leans away with no effort to swing, and the ball pinches the crevice between the hand and the bat handle and touches both simultaneously. I say there is no rule in any rule set that covers this. I can tell you how I handle it, and will do so after I get some feedback. THANK YOU GENTLEMEN.

I've mentioned before that I was out of the game for 5 years, so forgive me for asking a question that may be obvious to many of you. When MLB fixed the D3K rule back in 2006, it was made clear that if a batter "gives himself up" by walking out of the dirt circle around home plate, he is to be called out. I know for a fact that FED did not follow suit for the next 12 years. WHAT IS THE FED RULE TODAY? I would appreciate both a rulebook reference and a casebook reference. Thank you.

But it's just so "cool" to wear a two-piece.

The guy from Florida that I referenced was far more brazen than claiming it's illegal in Florida to fake the third, he claimed it must be only our County in Georgia that still allows it. I hate calling people liars, even when I suspect they are liars, because I would rather think they are short on facts and long on misunderstandings. I think some of these coaches who claim to be varsity coaches, actually are summer ball coaches that may coach two to three times as many games as the varsity coach did, and in most if not all of those tournaments, they are playing by MLB rules, or at least by the MLB balk rule. Therefore, as they remember it, High School disallows it

That was never in question ...

I don't know about off the book state adoptions, but here it is from the horse's mouth in Florida: Good morning- Thank you for contacting the Florida High School Athletic Association. FHSAA has not adopted any such rule stated below. Robbie Lindeman Coordinator of Athletics Florida High School Athletic Association 1801 NW 80th Blvd Gainesville, FL 32606 352.372.9551 Ext. 260

My understanding is that these maneuvers are still legal in FED, and that there is no rule disallowing them (as opposed to a rule saying they are legal). Is there a casebook play that enumerates that they are legal? I've got the 2025 book and cannot find one. Had a coach from Florida yesterday (tournament was in Georgia) who claims that Florida HS (FHSAA) outlawed these maneuvers ten years ago in following the MLB rule. I don't believe it. That would have to be a "By-State-Adoption" vote, which I don't believe exists with this particular rule.

Jim, you're number one.

This is precisely the rule I was referring to as being LOUDLY silent. To ignore ejections, as though they don't happen, and are not part of baseball, I don't care if the player is 8 or 18, is ludicrous. This is why the local Senior League created their own local rule to clarify that ejections fall within this rule's intent ... Because the Little League rule book is like the town gossip who can't say the word "pneumonia" because she's afraid she'll catch it if she does.

Senior League (affiliated with Little League). Ages 13-16 ... mostly 13-14 yr olds. Coach is batting all 10 players with no subs. Top of 4th, player strikes out on a foul tip and stands there ... either confused that the catcher caught it, or he lost the count. Not sure which. I had already made the tip mechanic and the high fist, but he didn't see it, so I just said, "That's three." He slowly walked away and said, "Bullsh..", flung his bat into the fence, spiked his helmet (got a good 12' bounce) and I ejected him. He then signaled to me that I was number one ... unfortunately right in front of Mom, who was the Asst Coach. Her immediate reaction was, "You pack your $h.. and get out of this dugout." I told her I specifically tossed him for throwing equipment, because I didn't want her to think that the mild profanity got him, and the "bird" came afterwards. I turned in a very short EJ report and classified it as "offensive," not "extremely offensive" and not "violent" ... which were the 3 choices. Two days later I'm back at the same park (it's playoff week) and everyone is buzzing about the kid who flipped off the umpire and may never play in that league again. What annoyed me the most is that the local league has a rule that states explicitly (because the LL Rulebook is LOUDLY silent on this) that the lineup simply collapses, and there is no automatic out for the spot in the batting order where the ejected kid batted. I have never officiated or coached in a league that allows this. If you have no subs, many leagues make exceptions for injuries, illnesses, and family matters that require a kid to leave a game early ... but EJECTIONS are the GRAND EXCEPTION ... it is ALWAYS an auto out when a team has no subs. Instead of the good old peer pressure of punishing the team for that one game, this kid may never play again. That's tragic, not discipline. Does anyone have thoughts for or against?

Gentlemen, First off, I am NOT seeking validation for my ejections, as this is a complicated scenario. What I am seeking is a better way to handle this sort of cluster in the future. 10u travel ball ... actually at a relatively high level. Balks are expected to be called pretty well straight up, but "straight up" to 10u coaches and two age 60+ umpires are worlds apart. We're not gonna give warnings, but we're not gonna call every little flinch or 1/8 turn of a shoulder, and we explain all this at the plate meetings. Also germain to the post, we explained politely at every plate meeting that we will not tolerate assistant coaches mouthing off from the dugout, or coming onto the field, or leaving the coaching boxes to object to a call. Team black is running all over team green 10-0 in the 3rd inning. Team green's pitchers have technically balked 6 or 7 times with no calls, and no objections from team black. In the top of 3, team black's pitcher flinches, then steps off, and an assistant from team green starts yelling from the dugout. Head coach in the 3B box does nothing to stop it. I shut it down, and continue. Next half inning, team green's pitcher jump turns to 1B and doesn't throw, and we both call the balk. The coaches (5 of them) go ballistic in the dugout. I shut it down again, and the catcher stands there with his palms up looking up at me, with the ball in his hand, and won't turn around and resume play. I had a rapport with him, so I said, "Johnny, throw the ball back to Marcus." Johnny - "That wasn't a balk, Blue!" "Johnny, throw the ball back to Marcus. You can learn what a balk is at your next practice." Head coach screams, "What did he just say to you? Johnny, WHAT DID HE JUST SAY TO YOU?????" Johnny - "He told me to shut up and throw the ball back." 5 coaches all come storming out of the dugout, mothers and grandmothers shriek, and if I weren't a 3rd dan, I'd have run for it. I threw out the head coach and one assistant (Johnny's dad, as it turns out) and let the other three off the hook. Johnny's dad went off on a profane tirade until the 25-yr-old tournament site director convinced him to leave. And actually, there was no further incident, and the game ended after 4 1/2 innings with handshakes. If I were training a young umpire, I would have advised him to forfeit the game after all 5 coaches came out like a gang, but at age 61, I figured I stepped into the bear trap of allowing Johnny to throw me under the bus ... just because he could ... (and because he's probably done it before).

Does it matter at all that he was faking rubbing down the ball?

R2 steals 3rd. F5 fakes dropping ball into F1's glove. F1 fakes like he's rubbing down the baseball in his glove and walks across the dirt surrounding the mound, within five feet of the rubber, but never stopping and walks off the other side. Runner never bites. F5 gives up, shows the ball, and I call a balk and advance R3 to score. The debate started after the game as to whether walking across the dirt qualifies as "taking a position." One partner says yes. One partner says no. ...................................... NFHS 6-2-5 It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and ... the pitcher places the feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or takes a position within approximately 5 ft of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

Fed Varsity Gm. R2, R3. Infield playing in for bunt. Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, no defender anywhere near the 3B bag. Legal? Balk?

Velho, I think you just cleared up something in my mind, the rule could be worded better, and I was viewing this play that he failed to slide legally as he did something illegal. Also, I believe I have seen language in youth brands of baseball that state, "When a tag play is evident ..." and goes on to state that the player must behave very similarly to the FPSR ... SLIDE ... or GIVE HIMSELF UP. AVOID COLLISIONS AT ALL COSTS

Yes, contact with the pitcher's glove and outstretched forearm.