thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb