timelydew

Thanks boys. I realize the novice... ness of my question. I just started umpiring this year and never granted "Time" in any normal game-flow situation, but I had to ask because it was nagging at me.

Andrew Stoakley‏ @stoakleyaudio Follow More Replying to @Wilnerness590 Joe West said 'that's an illegal pitch' after he paused before throwing. My mics picked him up saying it. 5:46 PM - 19 Sep 2017 So that's actually what was said. I just don't agree. Direct message

Sorry, I'm just pretty inexperienced. Growing up, I thought that when an out was recorded and action "settled", if you will, that the ball would be dead. So it just remains live through and through?

Question - is it completely arbitrary when to call the ball "dead" and put a halt to playing action? Say there's a runner on second, and the batter flies out. The ball is thrown back into the second baseman. Does the ball remain alive until it's with the pitcher? Is there a guideline?

Here is a link to it:

All I can say is that I was trying to be slightly inflammatory when I made the thread. Don't take it so seriously. So, it seems as though nobody knows exactly whether this is a ball or not - I think the safest call for a major league ump is "no pitch" and "don't do that again", with further transgressions punishable by ejection. In truth, I don't know what the MLB's view on this is, but going by the rules as they are set out, if Joe called it a ball because of the "shimmy", he is incorrect, at least to me. Maybe I'm wrong, and the league has issued a secret memo to its umpires, but until that time, I believe Joe just took the call into his own hands. And yeah, this had nothing to do with delivering the pitch within 12 seconds, or whatever. I realize that rules are ever-changing, but I doubt rules pertaining to this peculiar delivery have.

Read the link here first: https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/15034-joe-wests-illegal-pitch-call-cards-pirates-game.html And fast forward to the present. Joe West, yet again being Joe West, called an illegal pitch on Marcus Stroman for his "delay" tactic from the wind-up. Same as happened in the link above. No one was on base, so he called the pitch a ball. As put forth in the rules, only two conditions give us an illegal pitch: (1) a pitch delivered to the batter when the pitcher does not have his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate; (2) a quick return pitch. Read through that link up there first (it's where I draw my opinion from, specifically the posts by Dave Hensely), and tell me if you agree or disagree with Joe's interpretation. I do not. The guy's been umpiring longer than I've been alive, but ol' Cowboy Joe does things his own way.

I understand you. You're thinking of base runner interference in regards to the "through or immediately by" part. That has nothing to do with UI. As long as the batted ball passes, as you say, the "plane" of wherever the infielders are standing, it's a live ball and no UI. Think of where the infielders are and draw an invisible line. If the ball crosses that invisible line and strikes an ump standing in fair territory behind it, it's a live ball. If the ball strikes an ump before passing that line, UI. Pretty easy call and it's really only the 2B ump who's susceptible to it.

Yep. I asked him if it mattered which direction the bounce takes: Gil Imber‏ @Gilimber 23h23 hours ago More Replying to @atomikdestrukt @CloseCallSports No; top of the wall is treated as a hybrid in that a caught ball off the wall isn't an out, but is "in flight" for purposes of deciding HR.

That reply above is from the dude who runs Close Call Sports. In my original tweet I specified that I was talking about the Ramirez/Mahtook play in the replies. That site is like a bible for rule obscurities. I don't trust everything I read but it's almost an unimpeachable source. I asked if it mattered what direction the ball took off the bounce (ie, back toward the field) in reply to that. I'm beginning to doubt that it matters, though.

Matt Green‏ @atomikdestrukt Sep 13 @CloseCallSports If ball strikes TOP of OF wall and subsequently deflects out off of leaping outfielder, home run or two base award? Gil Imber‏ @Gilimber Follow Replying to @atomikdestrukt @CloseCallSports Home run if in fair territory, and two bases if the ball is deflected out of play outside the foul lines. Same as batted ball in flight.

Good eye. As for your first response, I was picturing a conventional single to the outfield, but thanks for the other example. So I guess I was right then. Thanks

I'm willing to see both sides of the argument. The one for awarding two bases (which I initially believed to be 100% correct) is a good one, but lacks any anecdotal evidence to support besides a few claims on message boards. The argument for supporting HR is based on logic and simplicity, and it's honestly the one I'm leaning toward. The lack of uproar around the call leads me to believe it should be deemed a HR. I've researched this issue more than anyone - I made the original thread about it here and at umpire.org. I still don't know however.

If the catcher is deemed in violation of blocking the plate, and the runner who's coming home is called safe, what happens to the other runner(s) if this happens? In the first part of the rule, where the runner is guilty of initiating illegal contact, it says that the runners must return to the base last touched at the time of the collision. What about if the catcher's guilty and a runner is advancing to second on the throw home? I assume that, since it's an act of obstruction, the runner would be allowed to advance to second if the catcher is the guilty party?

Very concise and correct. Thanks. It's a judgment whether he's secured or controlled the ball here. You could rule either way and justify it. I am leaning toward two bases, TOP.

Well said. I have no cause to disagree with you. So the hitting the top of the wall is then considered "in flight" when the ball hits it? I believe this is what Carl Childress determined back in 2001 in a post I referenced in that thread.

I should've looked closer, sorry. Glad to see you agree though. I'm just left now wondering about the whole ball striking the top of the wall and being deflected out by a fielder question. On both boards I posted it to, no real definitive answer. Although I see you think it should count as a HR. Amazing that there's no text anywhere that supports or debunks it.

I have to say I'm inclined to agree. MLB will admit to mistakes on HRs and their silence is deafening here.

so... are we no closer to knowing if this is a HR?

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/09/case-play-2017-9-deflected-error-triple.html I believe there is a case to be made for the runner being awarded home on this play. I mean, for chrissakes, he was around or near third when it happened? How do the umps place him at third here? Either the award should be second or home. They muffed this one. If you scroll down to the comments, I agree with these: cyclone14 • a day ago I think this would be considered the a fair ball 'thrown' into the stands by an outfielder under 5.06b(G), and so the award should be 2 from the time of the throw. Since Hernandez had rounded second already, he should have been given home. Nate Browell cyclone14 • a day ago Personally believe the spirit of the rule would be to award him home, assuming he Hernandez had achieved 2B. Technically this is deflected out, but in my judgment Trumbo's inability to control the ball a second time after intentionally corralling it seems to be similar to a fielder inadvertently kicking a motionless ball into the dugout. 2B or Home is the award. 3B only makes sense if (in error) they believed Hernandez had not yet achieved 2B when the ball entered the stands.

I honestly don't know anymore. I guess I've almost conceded that the lack of uproar about the call might just equate to it being correct. All I can say is that his interp is the simplest way to rule upon it. It can be difficult to ascertain directions of caroms. I dunno

I maintain that it's just a live ball and the play carries on as normal. That... just makes the most sense to me. Base awards in these cases are predicated on the ball actually leaving the field of play - a ball returning to the field of play in this particular manner to me denotes a live ball. As for the original question, I am almost willing to give Carl Childress and his interp the benefit of the doubt. https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/2055-ball-hits-wall-player-goes-over.html (Of course you've seen this, just for others who have not; that being said, read it again carefully as I have and perhaps you'll come to my conclusion) It does make sense - any ball hitting the top of the wall, and being deflected out of play by a fielder is a HR. Simple as that. If it hits the face of the wall, and is deflected out, GRD. In reading through his answers again I don't think the direction of the initial carom matters at all. He simply says when it's deflected forward by the outstretched outfielder. This also lines up with @noumpere's answer, which does cover this albeit without mentioning what part of the wall was hit. To me, if you take this play and apply Carl's reasoning to it, you could indeed have a HR. It certainly would complicate things less and be infinitely more understandable and easy to rule upon.

The one I'm most curious about is the ball hitting the top, continuing "forward" and being deflected back into play. For us to even consider that play, we'd first have to determine if the direction of the bounce off the wall actually DOES matter. Seems to me you can't answer one without the other.

I feel like we're bonded by this crusade. Man has it been a bugger to find some answers.

We're getting somewhere. So, in your opinion, does it at all matter the DIRECTION that the rebound off the fence takes? I.e., if it bounds back toward the field of play, or bounces forward toward DBT? Again, this question: "If the ball continues "out" then it's a HR. If the ball is deflected "back" toward home and is then again deflected out, it's a double." And, If the ball caroms off the top of the wall, and is perceived as going "forward" toward DBT, what is the ruling? HR? Live ball? Assuming the direction of the carom matters at all.