Pickoff & Windup

[Jack_Wick]

Guys, I saw this video with a friend and it sparked a never-ending discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXYun7suPeA

 

In this video, the author says he stepped off the rubber first, but it doesn't seem like it to me. Anyway, could he make a move like that from the windup position without stepping off the rubber or not?

Set rules: OBR

We're talking about a right-handed pitcher here.

All of this from Stretch position:

1. The spin move to 2B can also be done without a dash, right?

2. The spin move (always to 2B) is counterclockwise, but can it also be done clockwise? I mean, do a reverse spin move, that is, in the direction of the inside move?

3. The inside move is done clockwise, but I don't think it's legal to do it counterclockwise or not?

All of this from Windup position:

We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it?

1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move?

2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B.

3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise?

4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right?

5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move.

 

Thanks

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Technically an inside move to 2B or to 1B (clockwise) would be the same thing.

Yes, but it's specifically allowed by a note -- and the note is there just for that reason.

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Technically, that's not true. You can fake a pickoff toward one base and, without stepping off the rubber, throw the ball to another base. But it's unclear how this can be done or in what direction.

Only in FED, and I thought we were discussing OBR (because any pick from a windup is NOT legal in FED)

 

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Although it is a federal regulation and not OBR so I don't know to what extent these NFHS interpretations are valid for OBR?

OBR might "flow down" to FED, but FED does NOT "flow up" to OBR

[Jack_Wick]

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

Yes, but it's specifically allowed by a note -- and the note is there just for that reason.

Okay, that makes sense. So, the only way to pickoff to 1B is counterclockwise, right?

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

Only in FED, and I thought we were discussing OBR (because any pick from a windup is NOT legal in FED)

Sorry, I didn't know that. So a pitcher fakes a throw to 2B counterclockwise.

1. While faking, his pivot foot doesn't come off. If he now wanted to throw to 1B or 3B, would he necessarily have to step off the rubber? But after the pitcher steps to fake to 2B, his pivot foot would be pointing toward second base, so how should he disengage from the rubber? Should he, in this position (keeping his back to home plate after having moved toward 2B), always move his pivot foot backwards from the rubber? I mean, in a normal set position, the right side of the pivot foot moves toward 2B to disengage from the rubber. In the case of a fake to 2B, we would have the left side of the pivot foot pointing toward second base.  So should the foot move beyond the rubber on the home base side (from the point of view of the turned pitcher, home base is now his back base) or should the pivot foot always move beyond the rubber towards second base (though it would now be the front of the turned pitcher)?

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

OBR might "flow down" to FED, but FED does NOT "flow up" to OBR

2. How would it work in FED? Fake a throw to 2B, without stepping off, and could you turn in any direction and then throw to either 1B or 3B?

 

3. Finally, back on topic, to make a pickoff from a windup position:

1. To 1B Step and throw directly without ever lifting the free foot.

2. To make a pickoff to 2B, do you have only one movement? A sort of jump turn? But wouldn't you have an inside move from a windup position? So you can only make a pickoff to 2B counterclockwise but not clockwise, right?

3. To 3B, just slide your free foot over your pivot foot and step to 3B? Without lifting it too high? Isn't that a bit too generic?

[noumpere]

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

[Jack_Wick]

35 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

I just need you to answer my questions, please!

[BLWizzRanger]

[Aging_Arbiter]

DO you feel like you are trying to make up something to explain an incorrect call?  It has been explained, it has been copied and pasted from the rules.  Stop MSU and umpire.

 

Live, laugh, toaster bath!

[Velho]

8 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Live, laugh, toaster bath!

Can a toaster take a toaster bath?

@Jack_Wick is an LLM. At best it's a person cutting and pasting from an LLM.

You can keep engaging with it but don't expect rationality any time soon.

[MadMax]

On 10/30/2025 at 3:53 PM, Velho said:

You can keep engaging with it but don't expect rationality any time soon.

I'm starting to read / see / think that our version of a Voight-Kampff Test is in order... 

 

[Jack_Wick]

aaaaaa

I'm on the verge of giving up trying to understand. To quote Churchill: Baseball is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, really. Couldn't you answer my questions directly and simply, without cryptic half-messages? I truly feel like an ancient before the Sibyl. 

I'll try to summarize my desperate questions:

 

1. Okay, perfect, an inside move that reaches 1B is illegal. Thank God we got there.

 

2. How do you make pickoffs from the windup position? 

 

For "Rule 6.02(a)(1) Comment: If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play." any pickoff towards 1B (clockwise), towards 3B (counterclockwise) are illegal, both from windup and set postion.

A. BUT from the windup position, a clockwise (270° turn) pickoff toward second base would be legal, this wouldn't violate the above rule, right?

B. A legal pitching stance is also the third image above (https://umpire-empire.com/uploads/monthly_2016_03/56e5d7e829ad7_WindUpFootPositions.thumb.jpg.87ca11e25412cbe43cd799fafc31fe3e.jpg), i.e. non pivot foot is behind a line running through the front edge of the plate and also: "Rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber."; in this stance (free foot behind the rubber) would it still be possible to make a pickoff in 1B or 3B, even if the free foot is already behind the rubber?

C. Is there a contradiction in the OBR rules? 

Here's what you can do in the windup position:

Rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.

From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:

  (A)  deliver the ball to the batter, or

  (B)  step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or

  (C)  disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

But just before he also says this:

"He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot."

How the hell can someone not raise their foot to make a pickoff?

D. Also, would this new type of pick, https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw , be legal, or not?

 

3. So in OBR if you fake to 2B, without stepping off your pivot foot from the rubber in doing so, you can no longer throw to any other base, including 2B?

So if you fake to 2B, your foot stays on the rubber, and you throw to 1B, would that be a balk? Who says so?

Instead if you fake towards 2B, but your foot stays attached while doing so, to throw the ball to 1B/2B/3B you should step off your foot from the rubber first or not? How?

 

 

4. How would it work in FED? Fake a throw to 2B, without stepping off (not legal in OBR but legal in FED), and could you turn in any direction and then throw to either 1B or 3B?

So, a pitcher with his foot pointing toward 2B, after faking a pickoff, regardless of windup or set position, could, without stepping off the rubber, throw to bases 2B/1B or 3B by turning in any direction, that is: 

 

4.1. To 1B, could the pitcher turn before throwing, either 90° clockwise or 270° counterclockwise? 

4.2. To 2B, either directly, but does he have to step again first or not? Or do a 360° turn, either clockwise or counterclockwise, and throw to 2B? 

4.3. To 3B, either 90° counterclockwise or 270° counterclockwise and then throw to third base?

 

 

Stop, that's all. I'm hoping for real answers and not an ambiguous response from Apollo. Thanks

[The Man in Blue]

 

Called that one a LONG time ago . . . 

Only thing that brought me back in here was the Voight-Kampff Test reference.  

Since I am here, though . . . 

On 10/30/2025 at 9:09 AM, Aging_Arbiter said:

Live, laugh, toaster bath!

A student gave me that sticker.  I have not put it on my computer . . . yet.

OK, heading back out with this sage advice:

[Jack_Wick]