Balk to 3B -- Crew Conferences -- Changed to Step Off

[johnnyg08]

A little something in the Cape Cod League. It looks like they initially balked for throwing to F5 w/ no play...then changed it to a step off, returned the runner and called a pitch clock violation on the F1. What do you think? 

 

 

[JSam21]

Sure looks like the pitcher stepped to the rear and with no legitimate pick off attempt, an action clock violation would be appropriate. 

[jimurrayalterego]

37 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Sure looks like the pitcher stepped to the rear and with no legitimate pick off attempt, an action clock violation would be appropriate. 

It looks like a jab step but with his hands staying together as he steps off I think we can say he stepped of. But why a pitch clock violation? He made a play on the runner.

[Richvee]

They got it right. These two clowns with the microphones are priceless. The only thing they said that was right was they think the HC was saying he stepped off the rubber 
1. “Really late call”

2.”even if it doesn’t work out an effective argument by Landers”

3. These guys are amateurs … not SEC umpires. They go to work and come here on the weekends “

(I didn’t know D1 SEC umpires don’t have full time jobs)

3. “Maybe they don’t know the rules”

(😡😡)

4. “this is what you don’t want to see”

(right - we don’t want to see crews getting together and getting the call right)

5. “doesnt happen in the majors or minors” 

(yup - no crew consulting allowed there)

6. “last thing you  want to see”

(yeah last thing you want to see is the correct call applied) 

8. AND THE PIECE DE RESISTANCE

“wish they got every call right but that’s not gonna happen until they get the robots in”

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣can’t wait for that balk calling robot!!🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

It looks like a jab step but with his hands staying together as he steps off I think we can say he stepped of. But why a pitch clock violation? He made a play on the runner.

Perhaps it was second disengagement? 

[jimurrayalterego]

4 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Perhaps it was second disengagement? 

Or not a "legitimate" pick off attempt? 

[grayhawk]

6 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

It looks like a jab step but with his hands staying together as he steps off I think we can say he stepped of. But why a pitch clock violation? He made a play on the runner.

Appendix F, Section II, #7:

Any pickoff throw that is not a legitimate attempt to retire a runner is a violation, and a ball will be added to the batter’s count.

What we saw in the video was judged to not be a "legitimate attempt to retire a runner."

[JSam21]

9 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

It looks like a jab step but with his hands staying together as he steps off I think we can say he stepped of. But why a pitch clock violation? He made a play on the runner.

By rule, he has to make a "legitimate" attempt to retire the runner. He did not do so by throwing to the defender away from the base. 

 

[jimurrayalterego]

8 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Appendix F, Section II, #7:

Any pickoff throw that is not a legitimate attempt to retire a runner is a violation, and a ball will be added to the batter’s count.

What we saw in the video was judged to not be a "legitimate attempt to retire a runner."

 

6 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

By rule, he has to make a "legitimate" attempt to retire the runner. He did not do so by throwing to the defender away from the base. 

 

You can see F5 start toward 3B before F1 stepped off. A play might have been on. But I can see not judging it legitimate. 

[JSam21]

Just now, jimurrayalterego said:

 

You can see F5 start toward 3B before F1 stepped off. A play might have been on. But I can see not judging it legitimate. 

Yeah... but the throw was still away and a lob... put those two together and you get a violation. 

[grayhawk]

12 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Yeah... but the throw was still away and a lob... put those two together and you get a violation. 

Yes, and since U4 initially had a balk, you know he judged that it wasn't legitimate. The only thing he missed was the disengagement.

On a separate note, Scott Pickler was the long time head coach at Cypress College here in Orange County, and is now an assistant (he retired as head coach). Great guy, and knows how to make an argument. He takes good care of the crews for each home game to make sure we are hydrated.

[concertman1971]

45 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

He takes good care of the crews for each home game to make sure we are hydrated.

In CA JUCO ball, this means he gives you a bottle of water pregame! LOL He is a solid guy and does know how to argue though!

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Or not a "legitimate" pick off attempt? 

That's the more likely answer

[grayhawk]

17 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

In CA JUCO ball, this means he gives you a bottle of water pregame! LOL He is a solid guy and does know how to argue though!

He’s also gotten us cold lemonades and cups of ice on hot days! It’s more than most will do!

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Yes, and since U4 initially had a balk, you know he judged that it wasn't legitimate. The only thing he missed was the disengagement.

 

If you have Evan's video would you agree that it has similar examples that he would not balk?

[Biscuit]

3 hours ago, concertman1971 said:

In CA JUCO ball, this means he gives you a bottle of water pregame! LOL He is a solid guy and does know how to argue though!

There's a coach at a JUCO school in the Kansas City(ish) area that really goes above and beyond with hydration and snacks, plus a meal post game. Great guy. Really unfortunate that I've left the field with him steaming mad at me at least 3 times, because he really is one of my favorite coaches to work for, and not just for the refreshments. Though (by no fault of his), the field is maybe the worst I've worked at the college level.

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

If you have Evan's video would you agree that it has similar examples that he would not balk?

It's been a long time since I've seen that video. I lost it years ago in a move.

[BLWizzRanger]

These umpires might not be full time but 2U (seen at the last part of the video) probably is on the local Pro wrestling circuit or the strongest man circuit. Jeesh....

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[Velho]

5 hours ago, grayhawk said:

6 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Yeah... but the throw was still away and a lob... put those two together and you get a violation. 

Yes, and since U4 initially had a balk, you know he judged that it wasn't legitimate. The only thing he missed was the disengagement.

And the ball is dead on the disengagement so the balk "never happened"?

[jimurrayalterego]

38 minutes ago, Velho said:

And the ball is dead on the disengagement so the balk "never happened"?

Why is the ball dead on the disengagement?

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

And the ball is dead on the disengagement so the balk "never happened"?

 

[JSam21]

14 hours ago, Velho said:

And the ball is dead on the disengagement so the balk "never happened"?

Care to elaborate? 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

And the ball is dead on the disengagement so the balk "never happened"?

I ask because they didn't enforce the balk. They enforced the disengagement and added a ball to the count. I can only deduce that was because they declared play dead with the disengagement for a non legitimate pickoff attempt.

If not that, then why didn't they enforce the balk?

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

I ask because they didn't enforce the balk. They enforced the disengagement and added a ball to the count. I can only deduce that was because they declared play dead with the disengagement for a non legitimate pickoff attempt.

If not that, then why didn't they enforce the balk?

Because he didn't balk. Once legally disengaged, the pitcher can't balk with a throw to, or away from, a base. So this just becomes a non-legitimate pick off attempt and  that is an action clock violation. 

Remember, the balk would have been for throwing to a defender away from 3rd base (a feint to 3rd) which would have to come from an engaged position. As soon as he disengaged, he can feint all day.

 

The ball becomes dead once we determine that it isn't a legitimate pick off attempt and we enforce the action clock violation... yes. Maybe I am not following your question/statement?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

The ball becomes dead once we determine that it isn't a legitimate pick off attempt and we enforce the action clock violation... yes. Maybe I am not following your question/statement?

Nope, you got it. Appreciate the help working it through:

The outcome of the conference was that he legally disengaged, which U3 didn't have on the initial call. But, since he legally disengaged for an illegitimate pickoff attempt, it's a pitch clock violation.