Step to first and pitch?

[Richvee]

Sorry for the FB link, I don’t know how else to do it. (Perhaps someone can help) 

Anyway, crazy delivery. I don’t have an issue with bases empty. However, IF we saw this with an R1, what do you have? 
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/16VHGQEuBu/?mibextid=wwXIfr

[Tog Gee]

Wow. I pondered this move and decided I was wasting my time because it would never happen.

I'll take a stab that it's a balk because stepped to first base but failed to throw to first base.

Edited June 2 by Tog Gee

[Richvee]

15 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

I'll take a stab that it's a balk because stepped to first base but failed to throw to first base

That’s my take but there’s people online I respect who disagree. Interested to hear from the UE community. 

[ArchAngel72]

Illegal pitch?  Im trying to recall but there was something about stepping towards the plate.

I do have a balk if he does this with someone on base. Needs to be past the 45 degree point does it not?

Man that is about the wackiest delivery I have ever seen

[grayhawk]

With R1, I can't see how this could be anything but a balk. It's a clear step to first, as he clearly breaks the 45 degree angle as described in NCAA rules. The below describes a legal step to 1B, so if he does it and pitches, it's a violation.

9-1a(6): The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.

I'm curious, Rich, about what those that think this is legal point to in the rules. Is it that "habitually uses during the delivery" statement that drives us crazy?

[jimurrayalterego]

13 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

With R1, I can't see how this could be anything but a balk. It's a clear step to first, as he clearly breaks the 45 degree angle as described in NCAA rules. The below describes a legal step to 1B, so if he does it and pitches, it's a violation.

9-1a(6): The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.

I'm curious, Rich, about what those that think this is legal point to in the rules. Is it that "habitually uses during the delivery" statement that drives us crazy?

9--1-a-6 doesn't apply since it wasn't an attempt to pick off a runner. What did he violate in the Set or Windup citeria?

[grayhawk]

Just now, jimurrayalterego said:

9--1-a-6 doesn't apply since it wasn't an attempt to pick off a runner. What did he violate in the Set or Windup citeria?

If he's making a legal step to first, how can he legally pitch?

[grayhawk]

Perhaps I’m making this too complicated. With a runner at first, with this step, he is feinting to first. Balk. 

[Richvee]

19 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

37 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I'm curious, Rich, about what those that think this is legal point to in the rules. Is it that "habitually uses during the delivery" statement that drives us crazy?

No. The same argument @jimurrayalterego is making.  Nothing in the rule book regarding the set says the pitcher must step towards home. This is the reason I have a legal pitch with the bases empty, but I’m with you, Steve. With a runner on, this is a step to 1b and the rules tell us a there must be a throw to 1b when a pitcher steps towards 1b from the rubber. 

[grayhawk]

7 minutes ago, Richvee said:

 

A step to 1B without a throw is an elephant balk. 

[jimurrayalterego]

52 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

A step to 1B without a throw is an elephant balk. 

When picking off. 

[grayhawk]

2 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

When picking off. 

If he used this exact step and threw to 1B, would you balk him?

[Velho]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/16VHGQEuBu/?mibextid=wwXIfr

 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

If he used this exact step and threw to 1B, would you balk him?

No. If a lefty in the stretch came to a closed set with a step to 1B would you balk him?

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

No. If a lefty in the stretch came to a closed set with a step to 1B would you balk him?

No. So if you have this as a legal step to 1B with R1, then this must be a feint to 1B if a throw to 1B doesn't follow.

[dumbdumb]

i do not have the resources that all of you have, but i did find this article from 2023 (probably no good now), but it would seem that the deceived part would play in this somewhere, somehow. this would be a good one for mr. bruns and with his insight for why or why not this would be all right for either one or both are ok for batter and runner if one, or ok for just batter, or just ok on runner.

added later below

on the video

its kinda like when i went to a swim meeting. i could not tell the difference between a poorly performed legal stroke, and a superbly performed illegal stroke, so, i just decided i would just go and watch the meets and help get the snack bar ready once a year as my volunteerism.

https://thebaseballguide.com/ncaa-baseball-pitching-rules/

[jimurrayalterego]

9 hours ago, grayhawk said:

No. So if you have this as a legal step to 1B with R1, then this must be a feint to 1B if a throw to 1B doesn't follow.

I don’t have my pitcher stepping to 1B. Coming set with a move of the free foot toward 1B is not a feint of a pickoff there and you and I would not balk that. Delivering a pitch with the free foot going partially toward 1B is not a feint of a pickoff there and you shouldn’t balk that either. 

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

its kinda like when i went to a swim meeting. i could not tell the difference between a poorly performed legal stroke, and a superbly performed illegal stroke, so, i just decided i would just go and watch the meets and help get the snack bar ready once a year as my volunteerism.

I’ll have to dig into the pitch when I am home and parse through the rule books.  I know my reaction, but I need to support it or refute it.

I want to dig into the heart of your comment.  If we want people to get into umpiring and we want people to do the job well, the rules and the game need to be accessible and need to make sense.  Your comment is a major reason some people quit umpiring quickly.

 

[Velho]

39 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I’ll have to dig into the pitch when I am home and parse through the rule books.  I know my reaction, but I need to support it or refute it.

Do you not have any pockets whatsoever? Only need the smallest of ones to carry your MSU rulebook. 😉

[The Man in Blue]

I do not.  I usually carry the MSU manual in the deepest, darkest — and I do mean D-A-R-K — recesses of my mind.

My ball bags are full of snacks and my cell phone, so no room there.  

[grayhawk]

9 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I don’t have my pitcher stepping to 1B. Coming set with a move of the free foot toward 1B is not a feint of a pickoff there and you and I would not balk that. Delivering a pitch with the free foot going partially toward 1B is not a feint of a pickoff there and you shouldn’t balk that either. 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. This is not a free foot going partially to 1B. It's a full step with distance and direction to 1B, and with R1, he has to follow that step with a throw. I'm balking this for a feint to 1B. Fortunately, I doubt I'll ever see it.

[jimurrayalterego]

50 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. This is not a free foot going partially to 1B. It's a full step with distance and direction to 1B, and with R1, he has to follow that step with a throw. I'm balking this for a feint to 1B. Fortunately, I doubt I'll ever see it.

Run it by Randy Bruns. I think he would agree with you based on his literal interp of some of the pitching rules, such as a stutter step to turn sideways being a step toward HP in the delivery. Let me know when he gets back to you on this and that other question about coach assist☺️

[The Man in Blue]

Now that I have gotten a drink, read up, and made it home . . . I have parsed, I am no longer parched, and now I am perched to render pronouncement . . . 😉

I can find nothing in NCAA saying the pitcher has to step towards home plate in his delivery.  Hence the argument that this is legal with no runners on.

Using the rule book language, I can piece together three potential objections:

1) The way he lands and continues, he is establishing a second push off.  It is not with the pivot foot though.  I will say, NCAA language is a little sketchy here: it says "their foot" not necessarily "the pivot foot."  The second push off also does not have to be towards home plate.

2) The "without interruption or alteration" clause.  This is most definitely an alteration.  His windup seems fairly normal until he continues the lean and all of his movement goes towards first base. 

3) "All other matters not covered" as this clearly does not seem to fall within the spirit of the game.

 

Take those apart as you see fit.

 

I will also take a  opportunity to continue to say that a 45-degree angle +/- a few degrees is NOT "directly towards."  That interp is garbage.  

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Now that I have gotten a drink, read up, and made it home . . . I have parsed, I am no longer parched, and now I am perched to render pronouncement . . . 😉

I can find nothing in NCAA saying the pitcher has to step towards home plate in his delivery.  Hence the argument that this is legal with no runners on.

Using the rule book language, I can piece together three potential objections:

1) The way he lands and continues, he is establishing a second push off.  It is not with the pivot foot though.  I will say, NCAA language is a little sketchy here: it says "their foot" not necessarily "the pivot foot."  The second push off also does not have to be towards home plate.

2) The "without interruption or alteration" clause.  This is most definitely an alteration.  His windup seems fairly normal until he continues the lean and all of his movement goes towards first base. 

3) "All other matters not covered" as this clearly does not seem to fall within the spirit of the game.

 

Take those apart as you see fit.

 

I will also take a  opportunity to continue to say that a 45-degree angle +/- a few degrees is NOT "directly towards."  That interp is garbage.  

That’s all nice. 
You’re U1 in anNCAA game. He does this with a runner a 1B. What’s your call? 

[The Man in Blue]

Easy balk call.

And I am convinced it is an illegal pitch with nobody on.