Obstruction Question

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

NFHS rules, Varsity BB

Bases loaded, outs dont matter. Batter hits ball into gap and is looking to go for extra bases, but F8 was positioned over into that gap and cuts the ball off. Batter is obstructed by F3 as he makes a big turn around 1st, but it is clear he isnt going to go to 2nd (and wouldnt have regardless of OBS) as the runner relaxes and starts to head back towards 1st. Then, the ball gets thrown in and gets away from the cutoff man. Batter-runner now takes off for second, and is thrown out on a very close play. I ruled no obstruction and the BR out at 2nd. Did I make the correct call?

 

[SH0102]

21 minutes ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

NFHS rules, Varsity BB

Bases loaded, outs dont matter. Batter hits ball into gap and is looking to go for extra bases, but F8 was positioned over into that gap and cuts the ball off. Batter is obstructed by F3 as he makes a big turn around 1st, but it is clear he isnt going to go to 2nd (and wouldnt have regardless of OBS) as the runner relaxes and starts to head back towards 1st. Then, the ball gets thrown in and gets away from the cutoff man. Batter-runner now takes off for second, and is thrown out on a very close play. I ruled no obstruction and the BR out at 2nd. Did I make the correct call?

 

You’re wrong technically and probably right practically .  In NFHS rules, obs is automatically a one base award (at a minimum), whether they would advance or not is irrelevant.

since you said “batter was obstructed by f3”, he should get second in HS rules, there is no “but he wouldn’t have”.

Practically however, if f3 didn’t “impede his progress” or hinder his ability to go to second, in practicality we don’t want to just give him second, otherwise we would encourage batters to just bump into f3 every time.

But if what happened matches what you said, you should call it in HS and award second. Moving up into college and pro rules you won’t have that issue

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

But if what happened matches what you said, you should call it in HS and award second. Moving up into college and pro rules you won’t have that issue

Wouldn't be OBS in LL either 😉

Again, why does HS do it this way?

[Richvee]

Personally, this is a call that needs more judgement before declaring obstruction at the FED level. While other codes let you call it, and place BR back at 1B because he didn't attempt to advance, FED does not.. So, unless I think BR was going to try for 2B, ran into F3 and then decided he'd better go back, I'm not calling obstruction. 

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, Velho said:

Wouldn't be OBS in LL either 😉

Again, why does HS do it this way?

 

It applies a penalty to the defense, rather than just "righting a wrong", to offer some level of deterrence.   Just like in football, it's still holding even if you and the guy you're holding are on the exact opposite side of the field from the guy with the ball.   Otherwise, there can be some low risk, high reward situations that arise from a lack of penalty/punishment.

And, I suspect it just makes it easier for amateur umpires, and removes some of the judgment of "would they have made it" and not worrying about type 1 vs 2.

[Richvee]

20 minutes ago, Velho said:

Again, why does HS do it this way?

Because they're bent on not having type A AND B obstruction. It's another case of dumbing down the rules like the dead ball balk

[jimurrayalterego]

36 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Personally, this is a call that needs more judgement before declaring obstruction at the FED level. While other codes let you call it, and place BR back at 1B because he didn't attempt to advance, FED does not.. So, unless I think BR was going to try for 2B, ran into F3 and then decided he'd better go back, I'm not calling obstruction. 

If you don't point you don't have to award. Before pointing think if the bolded applied.

2008 Interps

"SITUATION 14: With a lazy, one-hop single to the right fielder, the batter rounds first base with no intention or action of advancing to second base. As he takes a few easy strides past first base, he contacts the first baseman who is partially in his path. RULING: Since the batter was making no attempt to advance to second base, the first baseman did not hinder him or change the pattern of the play. As a result, obstruction would not be called. Any benefit of the doubt would be given to the batter-runner if there was a question in the covering umpire's mind. (3-22-1)"

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

2008 Interps

"SITUATION 14: With a lazy, one-hop single to the right fielder, the batter rounds first base with no intention or action of advancing to second base. As he takes a few easy strides past first base, he contacts the first baseman who is partially in his path. RULING: Since the batter was making no attempt to advance to second base, the first baseman did not hinder him or change the pattern of the play. As a result, obstruction would not be called. Any benefit of the doubt would be given to the batter-runner if there was a question in the covering umpire's mind. (3-22-1)"

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, SH0102 said:

since you said “batter was obstructed by f3”, he should get second in HS rules, there is no “but he wouldn’t have”.

 

Yes, there is.  And, if BR wasn't going to go to second, then there wasn't OBS.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Practically however, if f3 didn’t “impede his progress” or hinder his ability to go to second, in practicality we don’t want to just give him second, otherwise we would encourage batters to just bump into f3 every time.

Conversely, F3 could impede B/R from making a hard turn to induce a throw, to see what happens.  If we don't do anything ever, because B/R never makes an attempt to move on to second, because he's never allowed to move into a position to force the defense to make a rushed bad throw, then F3 has no downside to standing in the way.

[BigBlue4u]

I agree not to award the runner second base.  Spirit and intent of the rule.  Did the fielder hinder the runner or change the pattern of the play? I don't think so.  It is a judgment call.  However, if OP believes it did hinder the runner or change the pattern of the play, then award the runner second base.  

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Yes, there is.  And, if BR wasn't going to go to second, then there wasn't OBS.

He literally used the words “batter was obstructed by f3”

I then said, BASED ON THIS, that’s Obs and a base award (in HS)

Please read entire writing and intent before singularly replying to one sentence 

[BLWizzRanger]

Conversely, F3 could impede B/R from making a hard turn to induce a throw, to see what happens.  If we don't do anything ever, because B/R never makes an attempt to move on to second, because he's never allowed to move into a position to force the defense to make a rushed bad throw, then F3 has no downside to standing in the way.

I can see this. If the BR was making a hard turn and the obstruction happened nearer the base, before shutting down the attempt, I would hope that obstruction would be called because the ump doesnt know he is going to shut it down. All we would see is a hard turn, and obstruction as we prepare for a play into second.

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[SleptTilNoonLOL]

Thanks for the insightful replies guys. In my judgement as the play turned out F3 did not impact the outcome of the play at all so it seems like the consensus here was that I was correct to pass on the OBS. And yes, I'm aware that any OBS is an automatic base in NFHS but in my area the umpires take some minor liberties with that to use some common sense and judgement, as it seems most of you do as well. 

 

[noumpere]

3 minutes ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

Thanks for the insightful replies guys. In my judgement as the play turned out F3 did not impact the outcome of the play at all so it seems like the consensus here was that I was correct to pass on the OBS. And yes, I'm aware that any OBS is an automatic base in NFHS but in my area the umpires take some minor liberties with that to use some common sense and judgement, as it seems most of you do as well. 

 

It's not "taking liberties with the rule".  It's understanding that this statement from the OP:

10 hours ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

Batter is obstructed by F3 as he makes a big turn around 1st, but it is clear he isnt going to go to 2nd (and wouldnt have regardless of OBS)

is very likely not correct.  Either BR wasn't going to try to advance, in which case it wasn't OBS to begin with, or it was OBS, which means BR was trying to advance. And, it's knowing that in advance and being aware enough of the whole play -- including the actions and voices of the coach and of the defense and knowing you can be slow with the OBS call (if that's the one you want to make), but once you call it it's hard to put the cat back in the bag.  Getting all that right will let you make the right call at the right time.

[Kevin_K]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

Personally, this is a call that needs more judgement before declaring obstruction at the FED level. While other codes let you call it, and place BR back at 1B because he didn't attempt to advance, FED does not.. So, unless I think BR was going to try for 2B, ran into F3 and then decided he'd better go back, I'm not calling obstruction. 

It's important to understand this is much easier done in retrospect than in real time. I know I have made the call and regretted it because in Fed there is no recourse once the words leave your mouth.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

It's important to understand this is much easier done in retrospect than in real time. I know I have made the call and regretted it because in Fed there is no recourse once the words leave your mouth.

It’s definitely a “slow down and think about what you’re calling” kind of call. (Sort of like thinking about a low outside pitch before ringing a guy up on it😞) 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

(Sort of like thinking about a low outside pitch before ringing a guy up on it😞) 

Wait, that's not just an involuntary pavlovian response? (and why do they look so good... until just after you start the chainsaw?)

[Velho]

11 hours ago, noumpere said:

21 hours ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

Batter is obstructed by F3 as he makes a big turn around 1st, but it is clear he isnt going to go to 2nd (and wouldnt have regardless of OBS)

is very likely not correct.

You're probably right. Being sleep deprived will lead one to not choosing the best word such as "blocked" or "impeded" (though a lower case "o" was used).

It's also understandable since, in OBR, it likely would gotten a verbal "That's Obstruction".

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I can see this. If the BR was making a hard turn and the obstruction happened nearer the base, before shutting down the attempt, I would hope that obstruction would be called because the ump doesnt know he is going to shut it down. All we would see is a hard turn, and obstruction as we prepare for a play into second.

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Problem one is, even on a sprint from the box, to the hard turn around first, most people on the field know he's not going to second...unless a bad throw is made.  B/R is simply trying to make the outfielder rush and maybe muff the groundball, or make a bad throw.  He otherwise has no intent to run to second - everyone knows this, including the umpires...but he is still impeded from making the play he wants to make, which is anywhere from faking a run to second, to simply trying to get into the outfielder's head....or, for one example if R2 is trying to score, maybe bait the cutoff to help ensure R2 scores.

The other issue is if F3's position prevents the hard turn from starting/happening, then it just looks like a routine single and a routine rounding of first base, and looks like nothing was impeded.  He can't make the hard turn and barrel through/into F3...that'll be MC.

So if we always determine that B/R was never going to second then F3 has no reason to change his behavior...he can stand on/around first base all day long knowing he can simply prevent B/R from getting any ideas. Consider it proactive maintenance on F3's part.  Or contraception.  He's preventing any play from even starting.   B/R is going to instinctively and correctly slow down, before reaching first base, and simply avoid F3, showing good sportsmanship, and BU is going to determine that nothing was hindered, because B/R wasn't going to second anyway.

Now you're inviting B/R to "trip" over F3 and fall to the ground...forcing you to call OBS.  THIS is exactly why so many idiot coaches teach their players to make contact with F3, for the same reason that basketball, soccer and hockey players who lack integrity flop/dive...they've learned it, based on how officials do and don't respond.  When an official misses subtlety AND can't identify the worst acting in the world, you're only left with the measure of integrity or shame of the player to keep doing what keeps working.

Make no mistake, and I have no qualms saying it - FLOPPING IS THE FAULT OF OFFICIALS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Avoid decisions that will induce and foster flopping, or any other attempt to create OBS/INT.

Pop F3 on the most innocuous play imaginable...on a lazy single to RF where B/R has to change his path by a step to the right to avoid F3 as he rounds first...and give B/R second base.  F3 won't be a problem any more...and he won't be anywhere near enough for the B/R to fake/create anything (and they'll know they don't have to fake anything anyway).