Moving Hands/Glove - Balk?

[RBIbaseball]

TL:DR - I'm confused. I know what a double set it. But can you just slowly move your hands before stepping toward a base to feint/pick or before  delivering home?

I feel like I'm having a bit of a brain fart here.

I few days ago I saw a video of a pitcher coming set, I think it was college, (hands/glove near chin). Then the pitcher slowly moves his hands/glove down his chest to his belly button, then immediately picks off to 1B (no second stop). For some reason I thought this would have been a balk, but no call.

Then last night during NFHS game, I had a pitcher (with runners on, from the windup), receive the sign with glove/hands at the chin, then he nonchalantly moves his gloves/hands down to the belt line and pauses for a couple seconds, then starts his delivery. Is this legal?

 

Going back to the stretch question. Do the glove/hands moving up/down after coming set but prior to stepping to a base or delivering a pitch matter? Or is it just considered as part of "starting the delivery" or "stepping to feint/pick off"?

Hopefully that makes sense what I'm asking. I get it's two separate questions from the windup/stretch, but similar idea.

[maven]

26 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

TL:DR - I'm confused. I know what a double set it. But can you just slowly move your hands before stepping toward a base to feint/pick or before  delivering home?

I feel like I'm having a bit of a brain fart here.

I few days ago I saw a video of a pitcher coming set, I think it was college, (hands/glove near chin). Then the pitcher slowly moves his hands/glove down his chest to his belly button, then immediately picks off to 1B (no second stop). For some reason I thought this would have been a balk, but no call.

Then last night during NFHS game, I had a pitcher (with runners on, from the windup), receive the sign with glove/hands at the chin, then he nonchalantly moves his gloves/hands down to the belt line and pauses for a couple seconds, then starts his delivery. Is this legal?

 

Going back to the stretch question. Do the glove/hands moving up/down after coming set but prior to stepping to a base or delivering a pitch matter? Or is it just considered as part of "starting the delivery" or "stepping to feint/pick off"?

Hopefully that makes sense what I'm asking. I get it's two separate questions from the windup/stretch, but similar idea.

Once F1 comes set, he may legally disengage, step and then throw/feint to a base, or pitch to the batter.

The first two require F1 to move either his pivot or free foot, as they both involve a step. This must happen first, or at least simultaneously with any motion of the hands.

Any step with the pivot that is not a step backward and off the rubber is prohibited.

Any step with the free foot that is not a step toward a base commits F1 to pitch. A pickoff requires F1 to "step directly," which precludes prior movement of the hands/arms. (Normally applied to the step, requiring distance & direction.)

Any motion of the hands or arms (that's not part of a jump turn/jab step or other legal pickoff move) after coming set commits F1 to pitch, as it marks the start of the pitch by rule. 

NFHS 2-28-2: "For the set position, the 'time of the pitch' occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch."

So to answer the main question: the hand/arm motion you observed is legal if part of the pitch, illegal if it proceeds a pickoff.

[RBIbaseball]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

Once F1 comes set, he may legally disengage, step and then throw/feint to a base, or pitch to the batter.

The first two require F1 to move either his pivot or free foot, as they both involve a step. 

Any step with the pivot that is not a step backward and off the rubber is prohibited.

Any step with the free foot that is not a step toward a base commits F1 to pitch.

Any motion of the hands or arms (that's not part of a jump turn/jab step or other legal pickoff move) after coming set commits F1 to pitch, as it marks the start of the pitch by rule. 

NFHS 2-28-2: "For the set position, the 'time of the pitch' occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch."

 

Oh, I missed 2-28-2 , i only read chapter 6... even though it does refence that in chapter 6 - doh!

But to sum up what you are saying in my own words...

The video I explained SHOULD have been a balk. Because once the hands start moving, it is considered the "start of delivery", and therefore no long legal to pick off. A feint/pick off MUST start with an immediate step toward the base with the free foot.

On the flip side, the hands can move as slowly up or down as the pitcher wants, as long is it doesn't result in another discernable stop, and culminates with the delivery of a pitch.

[maven]

That's correct. 

I'll add that there's a reason we don't see this in pro ball: there, they know that it just gives runners a huge advantage, as they can take off the second the hands move without fear of being picked off.

[RBIbaseball]

1 minute ago, maven said:

That's correct. 

I'll add that there's a reason we don't see this in pro ball: there, they know that it just gives runners a huge advantage, as they can take off the second the hands move without fear of being picked off.

100%

And just to clear up the last question. From the windup, F1 can move his hands up and down and pause as much as he wants, right?

It's either he steps off with the pivot foot to disengage, or steps with the free foot and begins delivery?

[maven]

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

And just to clear up the last question. From the windup, F1 can move his hands up and down and pause as much as he wants, right?

For FED, F1 in the windup is limited to "two pumps" of his arms, whatever that means.... And he can't stop everything during a pitch, no matter the position (he can stop the hands, if that's what started the motion, provided something else is moving).

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

100%

And just to clear up the last question. From the windup, F1 can move his hands up and down and pause as much as he wants, right?

It's either he steps off with the pivot foot to disengage, or steps with the free foot and begins delivery?

Once both hand move (together) in Fed, F1 has started the pitching motion. Stopping after that is (should be) a balk/ illegal pitch.  

[jimurrayalterego]

33 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Once both hand move (together) in Fed, F1 has started the pitching motion. Stopping after that is (should be) a balk/ illegal pitch.  

But is not in some areas where the MLBUM description of the windup is used and no one complains if a pitcher brings his hands together and stretches his arms and stops before starting his actual delivery with associated leg or foot motion.

MLBUM

"Pitchers assume the windup position in one of three ways:

(1) Facing the batter, hands together, pivot foot in contact with the rubber, other foot free. This is the "traditional" windup position. from this position (hands together), any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption.

(2) Facing the batter, hands apart (usually at the side), pivot foot in contact with the rubber, other foot free. From this windup position, the pitcher goes directly into his delivery to the batter. If the pitcher uses this windup position (hands at side), the first movement of his hands or arms or feet that is associated with his delivery commits the pitcher to pitch.

(3) Facing the batter, hands apart, pivot foot in contact with the rubber, other foot free. From this position (hands apart), the pitcher receives the sign from the catcher and then brings his hands together in a stationary position (“pause”) before beginning the delivery. Once the pitcher’s hands are together, the pitcher is in the “traditional” windup position. If a pitcher uses this windup position, the act of bringing his arms up and positioning his hands in front of his body shall not be construed as the start of his actual delivery UNLESS some other action is initiated by another part of his body simultaneously and is associated with the actual delivery. Any of the three positions described above is considered a legal windup position, and from such windup position (regardless of whether the pitcher’s hands are together or apart), the pitcher may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber by stepping back with his pivot foot first. (Disengaging the rubber by stepping back with his free foot first is a balk when runners are on base regardless of whether the pitcher’s hands are together or apart.)"

[RBIbaseball]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

Once both hand move (together) in Fed, F1 has started the pitching motion. Stopping after that is (should be) a balk/ illegal pitch.  

Both you and maven pretty clearly answered the question, but I want to ask again for my own sanity.

 

F1 in windup, R3. Pitcher has ball/hand in glove against his chest. Before/during/after taking the sign, he stretches out both elbows and bring them back in as he sighs/takes a deep breath, and pauses for a couple seconds, then starts delivery ... BALK

 

If he doesn't pause, but delivers directly after stretching arms, then LEGAL?

 

Additionally . Are you calling illegal pitch on this with no runners on, if the batter is ready to go and it doesn't seem to affect anything ?  Seems ticky tacky . 

[jimurrayalterego]

29 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Both you and maven pretty clearly answered the question, but I want to ask again for my own sanity.

 

F1 in windup, R3. Pitcher has ball/hand in glove against his chest. Before/during/after taking the sign, he stretches out both elbows and bring them back in as he sighs/takes a deep breath, and pauses for a couple seconds, then starts delivery ... BALK

 

If he doesn't pause, but delivers directly after stretching arms, then LEGAL?

 

Additionally . Are you calling illegal pitch on this with no runners on, if the batter is ready to go and it doesn't seem to affect anything ?  Seems ticky tacky . 

It's ticky tacky even with runners on in FED. It's not anything in OBR or NCAA. You have not specified a code that I can tell but @maven and @noumpere responded to a segue from your OP about the set to the windup and only referenced FED. But please peruse my cite of the MLBUM windup interp for any questions about OBR and NCAA and even some places where we don't apply the ticky tacky even in FED.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

Additionally . Are you calling illegal pitch on this with no runners on, if the batter is ready to go and it doesn't seem to affect anything ?  Seems ticky tacky . 

It needs to be addressed. How to do so is part of the art of umpiring. See the thread in this same section on stepping from the art position. 

[RBIbaseball]

@jimurrayalterego @noumpere @maven

Appreciate the insights. This windup thing is not something I want to have to penalize for, so I'll try to be proactive with it before something gets out of hand. I don't suspect too many coaches will be yelling for balks and illegal pitches from the windup, thankfully.

Yes, I was only do NFHS at the moment, but I always like to understand the differences.

Thanks everyone.