Changing a Call "Late"

[Slippery Fish]

I only can ask this question by way of example.

Yesterday I had a situation with R1 and R2. The pitch is delivered and the batter checks his swing while R1 and R2 take off. B1 then takes a step back in the box, and the catcher cocks his arm to throw but holds up because the batter is in front of him. R1 and R2 complete their steals safely. I watch all this, and for some reason don't call interference.* It takes me a second to process what all just happened (check swing and potential interference), but I don't call anything and start to move on. The catcher then turns around and asks me, "Is that interference?." Shoot. "Uh, no." "Well he can't take a step back right, did he take a step back?" I respond with something like, he did, yeah, but it was after you made your attempt, yada yada. I don't really remember, it was complete B.S. I think I was really nervous to make it look like I was changing a call after he asked me something.

Between innings, the coach comes out and very respectfully says that his catcher wants to know what he is supposed to do when the batter takes a step back so he can know for next time. At this point, I have no other answer than, "Coach, I messed that call up. That was interference and your catcher didn't do anything wrong, I just missed that call." Fortunately for  me, he's perfectly happy with that answer, and we move on. I let the catcher know the same thing when he comes out the next inning, and we play on.

My underlying question is this. If a coach or player asks you something after a play and you realize that you made an incorrect call (or no call), do you just go ahead and change it? What if no one asks you, but you realize that you missed something? I've tried a few different approaches. On straight judgement calls, I try to just own my original call. "Coach, I had him making the tag before the runner got his arm there" even if I think I may have been wrong. One more complex rulings, I've occasionally met with my partner to give myself cover for changing a call, but given that the infraction in question was BI, I didn't feel like would make much sense. I was very fortunate that this scenario did not become an issue, but this easily could have become a $#!* show. If you do change a call, how do you go about explaining it to the opposing coach?

I realize the best outcome is to be extra familiar with the rules and call infractions when they happen. But it still happens to me every once in a while that several seconds after the dust settles, I realize there was a call to be made, and I want to be better prepared to handle that again.

*As an aside, this is interference, correct? I've always worked under the assumption that a right-handed batter taking a step backwards after his swing, even if he remains in the box, is likely interference if there is an attempt to put out a runner on a steal of 3rd. I just never see it called (albeit I typically work 14u or lower), so it makes me hesitant.

[BigBlue4u]

17 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

 I was very fortunate that this scenario did not become an issue, but this easily could have become a $#!* show. If you do change a call, how do you go about explaining it to the opposing coach?

Two thoughts:  1) If you are going to tell a coach you were wrong, I think the best thing you can tell a coach is:  "We (I) had to change the original call because it was wrong." Expect a comeback from the coach.  Let him have his say to a point.  If you do not want to admit you missed the call, one response is: "Coach, it was a tough call, I did the best I could with it."  Also expect a comeback from the coach (probably a cheap shot.) As I said earlier, let him have his say.......to a point. 

[Replacematt]

To answer your question--it sure sounds like interference from your description. The batter made a movement that hindered the catcher.

Now for the more general concepts:

I'm guessing you're a relatively inexperienced official based on both what and how you're asking about this. Things get easier with time...trust me. You have another specific question about if we make calls late--and there is no single answer; there are times when it is the acceptable thing to do and there are times where it is not, and knowing the difference is something that comes with more experience (and a lot of lessons learned the hard way.) Your statement about judgment calls is good as it honestly communicates your position without oversharing information that could be picked apart.

Overall, the best thing that you can do, if there is one single thing, is to slow down and process everything. We severely overestimate how much time elapses when we're the ones making the calls.

[Richvee]

I’m not changing a call that I can’t get some added information from my partner. Like you said, judgement calls, you need to explain what you have. Even if deep down there’s doubt.
On plays like your BI, all I can say is be assertive. Don’t be afraid to call the tough calls. Know the rule, call the tough calls, and use your rules knowledge to explain why you made the call. You’ll find it’s always easier to reference a rule and explain to a coach why you DID call something, instead of explaining to the other coach why you didn’t call something. 
 I had one yesterday. R2, I’m in “C”. Line drive almost at my head. I elude the liner, turn, and F6 is making a shoestring catch. I get a good look at the catch about 3” off the ground, and now there’s a play back into 2B, and I call safe. Immediately the defensive is walking off the field the bench is all over it… “No way!!”  and I’m thinking “uh oh… I think I kicked this”. (No excuse, but the liner to the head, a good look at the catch, and I probably got caught a little off guard by another play and rushed the call).  Manager comes to the foul line under control and asks “you had that runner getting back?”  
I said,  “I’ve got a a diving R2 getting a hand on the bag, while F4 is catching the throw, and THEN F4’s foot hitting the bag”.  He gave me that inquisitive look , like ”really?”  This was the second game of a DH, and through a couple conversations prior I could tell the temperament and personality of this coach, So  I shrugged my shoulders a little and added. “Evidently there’s a lot of people that didn’t see it like that??.” He smiled and walked away. Each coach/ situation will dictate how you can or can’t handle these situations. 

And yes, your play does sound like BI. 

[johnnyg08]

This is probably one of my favorite "get it right" clips of all time. Another umpire had a look, gave his crew critical information to save the crew. That's skill and leadership which is why Billy is one of the best there is at the amateur level of baseball. There's lots to learn from a clip like this. Very, very well done. 

 

[BigBlue4u]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

That's skill and leadership which is why Billy is one of the best there is at the amateur level of baseball. There's lots to learn from a clip like this. Very, very well done. 

You are talking about Billy Van Raaphorst.  And you are 100% right about his game management skills.  He is one of the best.  One of the big reasons why is his ability to listen to what a coach has to say rather than brushing him off as a number of umpires do.

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

You are talking about Billy Van Raaphorst.  And you are 100% right about his game management skills.  He is one of the best.  One of the big reasons why is his ability to listen to what a coach has to say rather than brushing him off as a number of umpires do.

Yep, and if they can bring them back out in the College World Series, you can definitely bring them back out in literally any other game any of us on here are working. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

It all depends on the game situation, the proverbial room and your reputation and relationship with the Coach. If I am inclined to admit on a judgement call (and I am generally not inclined) that I missed it, I am NOT admitting that or discussing that DURING the game. The Coach may have been reasonable in his tone and attitude but, you don't want to admit during a game that you missed one. If it's judgement, stay with your call. "Coach, in my judgement, I do not have interference on that play."

If a Coach comes to you as described here on a call it sounds like you missed (hey, it happens...I am not judging you) I would have said to him, "Coach, I will discuss it with you after the game. Thank you." and get the game going again.

Approach the Coach after the game and just tell him, "Coach, it was interference and I missed it. Your catcher is doing the right thing there."...and walk away. Just walk away.

If you give that to him during the game and you miss another one or he THINKS you missed another one (not even an interference call), he's going to do the, "That's two!" bit and you risk losing operational control of the game. In closing, if it's a big rivalry game or some kind of playoff game or some other game of consequence...read the room and simply do not discuss it at all.

~Dawg

[Replacematt]

57 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I am NOT admitting that or discussing that DURING the game. The Coach may have been reasonable in his tone and attitude but, you don't want to admit during a game that you missed one. If it's judgement, stay with your call. "Coach, in my judgement, I do not have interferethnce on that play."

There absolutely are times you can admit you blew it. Being non-committal when you know/think you missed it is a tool, too. 

57 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If a Coach comes to you as described here on a call it sounds like you missed (hey, it happens...I am not judging you) I would have said to him, "Coach, I will discuss it with you after the game. Thank you." and get the game going again.

Approach the Coach after the game and just tell him, "Coach, it was interference and I missed it. Your catcher is doing the right thing there."...and walk away. Just walk away.

Absolutely not. 1--we don't go looking to talk to coaches after the game. 2--you just told the coach you lied. 

This is one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever seen on this forum.

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

It all depends on the game situation, the proverbial room and your reputation and relationship with the Coach. If I am inclined to admit on a judgement call (and I am generally not inclined) that I missed it, I am NOT admitting that or discussing that DURING the game. The Coach may have been reasonable in his tone and attitude but, you don't want to admit during a game that you missed one. If it's judgement, stay with your call. "Coach, in my judgement, I do not have interference on that play."

If a Coach comes to you as described here on a call it sounds like you missed (hey, it happens...I am not judging you) I would have said to him, "Coach, I will discuss it with you after the game. Thank you." and get the game going again.

Approach the Coach after the game and just tell him, "Coach, it was interference and I missed it. Your catcher is doing the right thing there."...and walk away. Just walk away.

If you give that to him during the game and you miss another one or he THINKS you missed another one (not even an interference call), he's going to do the, "That's two!" bit and you risk losing operational control of the game. In closing, if it's a big rivalry game or some kind of playoff game or some other game of consequence...read the room and simply do not discuss it at all.

~Dawg

I'm not seeking out a coach after the game for anything except maybe the check. The reality is that they don't really care. And in fact...they might even know...they're just trying to pull one over on you. That's another reason why I don't send coaches rules following games that I've worked. They have the same rule book, they can look it up on their own. 

If they send me game film or describe a scenario, then I will reply with "as shown in the video or as described" it would be x,y,z (not my games though)

[SeeingEyeDog]

Hey, handle it the way you want, brothers...it's a forum. Everyone has a voice here. Don't like someone's opinion or advice? Don't take it.

~Dawg

[Replacematt]

32 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Hey, handle it the way you want, brothers...it's a forum. Everyone has a voice here. Don't like someone's opinion or advice? Don't take it.

~Dawg

Or even better, speak up to prevent others from taking really, really bad advice.

This idea that all voices are equal is unhealthy. There are times where there are many right ways to do something and only one or a few ways to do it incorrectly. There are times where there are many incorrect ways to do something, and only one or a few right ways. And there are times where a statement is flat out right or wrong. This is one of those times. 

And just like the question in the OP about when we can change our own incorrect call, learning when an opinion lacks validity is part of the lessons learned with experience. Even more importantly, learning when our own opinion lacks validity is key to growing.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I didn't say all voices are equal. I simply said everyone has a voice here. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

I read stuff here every day I personally wouldn't do. There is no universality to umpiring. We like to think there is but, there isn't...certainly not in amateur baseball. But, don't take my word for it...it's all here on this forum and has been for years. Pick and choose what works for you and what is successful for you. Your market is not my market and vice versa.  What works for one person, may not work for another person. 

Telling someone that "this is one of the worst pieces of advice they have ever seen on this forum"? Like...that's just your opinion, man...and doesn't really do much except harsh everyone's mellow.

~Dawg

[Velho]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I'm not seeking out a coach after the game for anything except maybe the check. The reality is that they don't really care. And in fact...they might even know...they're just trying to pull one over on you.

Make sense to me for the levels you work.

In LL the opportunity to engage in a conversation, learn, and teach does exist. It's dependent on the situation of course, but with coaches I'm familiar with or have a positive read on, I will talk to them after or at a later time. Primarily it's to educate them on the rule, give them advice on how to coach it, or how to behave during the game (reading when that's right or wrong has taken some trial and error. I lean to silence if in doubt).

If I got something wrong or wasn't 100% on a call, I wouldn't be as stark as @SeeingEyeDog used in his example*, but would rather walk a middle road to discuss the challenges of the situation from the umpiring perspective.

College that wouldn't apply since the point of the game is completely different. The HS games I've attended that would be a waste of time (regardless that it's an academic environment).

Of course the best answer is "Get it right the first time" (to paraphrase @maven if I recall correctly).

* I did have a LL leaving early call (7.13, not the retouch kind) that I butchered. Just got it wrong and handled it poorly. Next time I saw the coach I apologized. That's being human to me and I learned a ton from the experience.

Everyone had to decide how they will handle things. The conversation here is good because it gives mental reps and time to think before the live action moment. That helps slow down the game.

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

here is no universality to umpiring.

There most certainly is in certain aspects.

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Telling someone that "this is one of the worst pieces of advice they have ever seen on this forum"? Like...that's just your opinion, man...and doesn't really do much except harsh everyone's mellow.

I said what I said for a reason. This isn't some Trumpian overuse of superlatives.

Your advice will get someone fired (or worse.) It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that it violates the one, exactly one, thing that is inviolable for our vocation, and that is our integrity. An umpire that does this will lose credibility and their ability to manage a game. That is why it's the worst advice I've ever seen here. Other things might have been incorrect, they may have been ill-advised, but this is outright destructive.

You want to go hash out calls with a coach after the fact? I think that's asinine, but I can see it at the less formal levels where everyone is drinking buddies/neighbors/upside-down pineapple friends. However, you are advocating outright lying and then getting oneself caught in it as part of that post-game encounter. I also don't think you thought of the consequences in future games with someone you try this trick on...When they ask you from across the field if you're lying about not missing this call just like the last one, what are you going to do? Ignore the automatic ejection? Eject them for being correct?

[Tborze]

On 3/31/2025 at 5:10 PM, johnnyg08 said:

This is probably one of my favorite "get it right" clips of all time. Another umpire had a look, gave his crew critical information to save the crew. That's skill and leadership which is why Billy is one of the best there is at the amateur level of baseball. There's lots to learn from a clip like this. Very, very well done. 

 

It was OBS anyway! 😉

[Slippery Fish]

Appreciate the discussion! I think one of the tough things about this for me is that there's really no way to practice this. If someone's holding back a drill to practice making yourself more assertive or practice changing a call now would be a good time to share

After reading though this discussion and reflecting on the situation some, I think what I need to do to grow is force myself to make what I think is the correct call, even if I feel like it's very late. I wouldn't do this in situations where I've already made a call (e.g. safe/out, at least without new information) but I could see it working in others where you "play on" unless a call is made (e.g. BI, CI, balks).

The downside would be catching flak for making a call late (or at least feels that way), but hopefully it could make me more assertive over time? Thoughts?

[johnnyg08]

3 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

Appreciate the discussion! I think one of the tough things about this for me is that there's really no way to practice this. If someone's holding back a drill to practice making yourself more assertive or practice changing a call now would be a good time to share

After reading though this discussion and reflecting on the situation some, I think what I need to do to grow is force myself to make what I think is the correct call, even if I feel like it's very late. I wouldn't do this in situations where I've already made a call (e.g. safe/out, at least without new information) but I could see it working in others where you "play on" unless a call is made (e.g. BI, CI, balks).

The downside would be catching flak for making a call late (or at least feels that way), but hopefully it could make me more assertive over time? Thoughts?

Remember, the call is mental. The mechanic is physical. Master your terminology. Know what a catch is. That will help you make your decisions. 

I have one of the slowest called strike mechanics there is...but I get a lot of pitches right on the edges by hanging with the pitches. 

I don't care what people think about my timing. I know what good timing is, they don't. 

[ousafe]

2 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

Thoughts?

Once you've made a call correctly (balk, bi, ci, etc), it becomes so much easier to recognize and get right the next time. After a few times it will become part of your natural umpire vocabulary and no big deal. You will be perceiving more of the action taking place because your brain has a place to put it efficiently. That's how you grow.

Just be careful and only call things you can explain using rule language. Otherwise you may be accused of allowing the fans to call the game on a late call.

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

Once you've made a call correctly (balk, bi, ci, etc), it becomes so much easier to recognize and get right the next time. After a few times it will become part of your natural umpire vocabulary and no big deal. You will be perceiving more of the action taking place because your brain has a place to put it efficiently. That's how you grow.

Just be careful and only call things you can explain using rule language. Otherwise you may be accused of allowing the fans to call the game on a late call.

Yep. I agree with this. Don't call it if you don't know the enforcement. Then look it up or come here to learn. Keep working.

[BigBlue4u]

On 3/31/2025 at 6:52 PM, Replacematt said:

This is one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever seen on this forum.

OK, Replacematt, now tells us what you really think.  🙂 

[beerguy55]

On 3/31/2025 at 3:10 PM, johnnyg08 said:

This is probably one of my favorite "get it right" clips of all time. Another umpire had a look, gave his crew critical information to save the crew. That's skill and leadership which is why Billy is one of the best there is at the amateur level of baseball. There's lots to learn from a clip like this. Very, very well done. 

I gotta say, as well as the crew handled it, I'm coming out with the same argument as the coach, and I think he has a case.  I simply find it hard to believe at least one of them didn't get a queue from the replay board.*

I'm all for getting it right, but if there are tools you are not permitted to use to do so, then we must stick with the original judgment, no matter how flawed.

*I have the same concern/belief with the A-Rod hand slap game.  Yup - they got it right...and I don't doubt for a second they got an assist from the replay board.

[johnnyg08]

59 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I gotta say, as well as the crew handled it, I'm coming out with the same argument as the coach, and I think he has a case.  I simply find it hard to believe at least one of them didn't get a queue from the replay board.*

I'm all for getting it right, but if there are tools you are not permitted to use to do so, then we must stick with the original judgment, no matter how flawed.

*I have the same concern/belief with the A-Rod hand slap game.  Yup - they got it right...and I don't doubt for a second they got an assist from the replay board.

I think BVR was working U1. There's not a ton of doubt that he would have a look at that from there. 

That being said...I would probably make the same argument if I were the defense...mainly because, what else are you going to argue?

 

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

That being said...I would probably make the same argument if I were the defense...mainly because, what else are you going to argue?

The lesson to learn here that I think so many (I would say the majority) of umpires do not have in their heads is that we don't have to change anyone's mind. We don't have to prove to them that we are right nor make them agree with us. They do get to have our explanation and reasoning, but if that's not persuasive to them, that's the way it is.

Notice how there wasn't a back-and-forth with the umpires trying to convince the DC that they didn't use the video board? He wants to think that, fine. He made the assertion, they told him what they had and how they got there, and that was that. To this day, maybe he still thinks they used the board.

[johnnyg08]

4 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

The lesson to learn here that I think so many (I would say the majority) of umpires do not have in their heads is that we don't have to change anyone's mind. We don't have to prove to them that we are right nor make them agree with us. They do get to have our explanation and reasoning, but if that's not persuasive to them, that's the way it is.

Notice how there wasn't a back-and-forth with the umpires trying to convince the DC that they didn't use the video board? He wants to think that, fine. He made the assertion, they told him what they had and how they got there, and that was that. To this day, maybe he still thinks they used the board.

Yep. I agree with that. Here's what we have and here's what we're doing.