Hidden Ball Trick -- Again

[johnnyg08]

 

[Velho]

Balk!

"9-3 If there is a runner or runners, a balk shall be called for the following action by

a pitcher: f) While not in possession of the ball, the pitcher stands with either foot or both

feet on any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound during a hidden-ball-

play attempt"

 

At least the ball was live this time.

[Velho]

Good friend's son is on Pepperdine (thankfully not that runner). Unsurprisingly, Manager wasn't happy (with 1BC in particular).

I wonder if anyone has told him he should have protested. 🤣

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Balk!

"9-3 If there is a runner or runners, a balk shall be called for the following action by

a pitcher: f) While not in possession of the ball, the pitcher stands with either foot or both

feet on any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound during a hidden-ball-

play attempt"

 

At least the ball was live this time.

I've seen numerous hidden ball attempts by F3 but no play, thus no call. I think the key is it's a play when the tag is attempted.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I've seen numerous hidden ball attempts by F3 but no play, thus no call. I think the key is it's a play when the tag is attempted.

Are you saying technically this isn’t a hidden ball trick, and still just a pick off attempt?  

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Are you saying technically this isn’t a hidden ball trick, and still just a pick off attempt?  

There is no hidden ball trick in any of the Codes' rules verbiage although it is in the OBR appendix. 

The FED rule does not allow the pitcher to be within 5 feet of the rubber without the ball. We have to allow common sense as to when to call this a balk. 

The NCAA rule actually does refer to a hidden ball play attempt and balks it if the pitcher is touching the dirt.

OBR balks any pitcher who stands on or astride the rubber without the ball and we use common sense there also.

I won't balk a fielder for faking a throw with his pitcher violating the Code's rule if there is not a play, a tag attempt. But I think only NCAA specifies a hidden ball play where, by rule, we can say faking a throw and putting the ball in your glove is not a balk as long as there is not a play. The other codes leave it up to common sense. In the OP the pitcher was on the dirt and there was a play which satisfies "hidden-ball-play".

 

[johnnyg08]

14 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

The NCAA rule actually does refer to a hidden ball play attempt and balks it if the pitcher is touching the dirt.

But I think only NCAA specifies a hidden ball play where, by rule, we can say faking a throw and putting the ball in your glove is not a balk as long as there is not a play. The other codes leave it up to common sense. In the OP the pitcher was on the dirt and there was a play which satisfies "hidden-ball-play".

 

 

[jimurrayalterego]

44 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

I do not understand the purpose of your reply. @Velho already posted this rule and I paraphrased it. Are you just reiterating the rule for the idiots who don't RTWFT and post oblivious to what's already been said?

[834k3r]

17 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

By the way, I really liked the video you posted with analysis (the Clemson HBT?). I think the extra length of the video helps as well.

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, 834k3r said:

By the way, I really liked the video you posted with analysis (the Clemson HBT?). I think the extra length of the video helps as well.

Appreciate the feedback. Thank you. 

[MadMax]

On 3/20/2025 at 9:43 PM, johnnyg08 said:

 

The rule doesn’t exonerate a Runner who absentmindedly steps off the base, thinking that the fielder (F3, typically) has thrown the ball back to F1. To @Richvee’s point, this is perceived as a “natural” extension of the pickoff attempt play. 
How often have we seen a youth F3 repeatedly tag a returned R1 as he climbs back up (hand on base, foot on base, stand up)? The F3 doesn’t hold the tag on, but instead tags him at each of the steps in the sequence, thus requiring the umpire to give a safe (or out) judgement at each of those tag attempts. On each of those, are we checking to see where the F1 is? No, that’d be ridiculous. 
Extend that further… we have a F3 receive a pickoff throw, with a cursory check of the Runner (legal, step & reach). He fakes the throw, and immediately spins around to tag the R1. Are we checking as to where the F1 is now? No, to do so is absurd. 

So what’s the difference? What’s the determining factor? It’s a passage of time, or series of other events leading up to it. Those, as @jimurrayalterego points out, are adjudged, not blatantly codified. Sure, the rules establish what constitutes it as a violation (ie. Balk), but just as we cannot expect the Batter to disappear on a steal attempt by R2 of 3B, so too we cannot expect the F1 to completely vacate the mound on every pickoff attempt wherein his F3 attempts to catch the R1 off the bag. 

On 3/20/2025 at 5:38 PM, Velho said:

Balk!

Can’t say that. NCAA 4-man crew, and either: 

A. The umpires (plural) weren’t checking to see where F1 was (in space), because they interpreted the F3’s “hold and delayed tag” as an extension of the pickoff attempt, or 

B. They were checking, and F1 was not in violation. 

[jimurrayalterego]

46 minutes ago, MadMax said:

 

A. The umpires (plural) weren’t checking to see where F1 was (in space), because they interpreted the F3’s “hold and delayed tag” as an extension of the pickoff attempt, or 

B. They were checking, and F1 was not in violation. 

F3 faked a throw and hid the ball. No problem. F1 faked a catch and lollygagged behind the rubber thinking that he couldn't be on or astride it. F3 then tagged the runner. Now we have a hidden ball PLAY with F1 on the dirt. That's a balk.

[johnnyg08]

19 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

F3 faked a throw and hid the ball. No problem. F1 faked a catch and lollygagged behind the rubber thinking that he couldn't be on or astride it. F3 then tagged the runner. Now we have a hidden ball PLAY with F1 on the dirt. That's a balk.

Yep. That's the camp I'm in too. The elements mentioned above ARE elements, but probably not for this play. 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

Can’t say that. NCAA 4-man crew, and either: 

 

You attribute more confidence than you should to some NCAA umpires' rules knowledge. Many are there for game management ability and pass the NCAA test with the help of their association's group test session. Not that that's a bad thing. Good umps will dig in the rulebook to refresh their knowledge of some particular question. But there are others who are happy with their test score and don't care to crack the book open ever. You might have missed this thread:

 

[johnnyg08]

8 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

You attribute more confidence than you should to some NCAA umpires' rules knowledge. Many are there for game management ability and pass the NCAA test with the help of their association's group test session. Not that that's a bad thing. Good umps will dig in the rulebook to refresh their knowledge of some particular question. But there are others who are happy with their test score and don't care to crack the book open ever. You might have missed this thread:

 

Dong ding ding....we have a winner!!!

[The Man in Blue]

Yeah, I’m usually pretty much in lockstep with you @MadMax, but I’m going to dissent here.

I do like the “batter cannot disappear” analogy, and I am OK if you are applying it immediately.  However, the pitcher does not have the right to linger or “fake it.”

It is a unique situation in that the pitcher really is NOT part of the play.  IMO, that is what I am looking at.  What is the pitcher doing to either absolve or implicate himself?  If he truly has not had a chance to move, I’m willing to consider that.  However, inaction by choice is still an action.

In all my years I’ve had two actual attempts at the HBT, one was successful, one we called a balk (after conferring to be sure what we had).  I’ve had two more (that I recall) where the ball was never put back into play after a dead ball.