Obstruction mechanic

[RBIbaseball]

Asking for NFHS

Let's say R1 is obstructed on his way to 2B and you judge he is protected to 3B based on a ball hit to F9 and watching the play unfold. Subsequent throw to 3B is in time and R1 is tagged out.

In the meantime B/R is halfway to 2B.

 

We've already given and verbalized obstruction on the initial hindrance, but how do we rectify the fact that there is another play to be made, once the tag is put on R1 at 3B.

 

In the event R1 is clearly out, Do we signal Safe and that's it? Allowing play to continue for the potential play at 2B? ... Seems like we'll have a bunch of confusion.

 

Do we verbalize again "safe, on obstruction" and point back to where the obstruction happened?

 

What's the best way to communicate/signal this clearly to both offense and defense to allow play to continue?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

Do we verbalize again "safe, on obstruction" and point back to where the obstruction happened?

 

It's not really covered, but I'd do something like that.  I probably wouldn't point back at the obstruction, though -- point at the runner in lieu of making a safe (or out) signal.

[jimurrayalterego]

39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's not really covered, but I'd do something like that.  I probably wouldn't point back at the obstruction, though -- point at the runner in lieu of making a safe (or out) signal.

it's covered in OBR but I don't know if FED would agree. If a Type 2 obstructed runner is put out before hie protected base they call time and award that base and place other runners.

[Velho]

4 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

it's covered in OBR but I don't know if FED would agree. If a Type 2 obstructed runner is put out before hie protected base they call time and award that base and place other runners.

Doesn't FED explicitly not agree?

Section 2-22-1 When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated

[Richvee]

35 minutes ago, Velho said:

Doesn't FED explicitly not agree?

Section 2-22-1 When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated

The question is, and FED has never told us as far as I know, what call do you make on the obstructed runner if he’s tagged out at the base he’s automatically protected to?  We’re not supposed to call time because other runners may be moving.  Do we call him out and fix it later?  Do we call him safe?  Do we say nothing? 
 

My thoughts are, on the bases, call him safe, point to the base. Something like “Safe here on obstruction”. By rule, the play stays alive. Maybe the defense now makes a play on the BR advancing to 2B. If they do, if you called r1 out and want to fix it later, you have deprived him of trying for home on the throw to 2B. I say “On the bases”, because at home it really doesn’t matter. Just don’t kill it. The obstructed runner has nowhere else to go. 

[maven]

Once again, it comes down to the most effective way to communicate our ruling. The tricky part is that R1 is neither out nor safe on the play, he's safe at 3B due to the award (protected).

The players (F5, R1) have every reason to think that R1 is out, so to prevent a circus we need at least to verbalize something to indicate that it's not so. "Safe on the obstruction," or the like could serve, but that's a lot of syllables (harder to process, harder to hear in the heat of the moment). I wish I had a better suggestion.

We don't want "stay here," because if the defense did misplay on the BR at 2B (or back into 1B), R1 should have an unhindered opportunity to advance (and we just told him to stay there). We can't properly award HP on the OBS, so that won't end well.

The good news is that it will be a rare F5 who can process this fast enough and read a possible play on BR at 2B. Unless the runners are vastly different in speed, BR should be sliding into 2B within 1–2 seconds of R1 arriving at 3B. So IRL (HS varsity and below) the need for any mechanic at 3B will be ameliorated by the play ending moments later. We can kill it and make the award per FED's rule.

[Tog Gee]

This is an NFHS rules connundrum for sure.

I was convinced at one point that we should call the runner out since they appear to be out.

(just as you would on catcher's obstruction, UK3, out at first on BR. You call the BR out but straighten it all out when the dust settles since it's delayed dead ball.)

But what if there were two outs? The OUT! call seems to end the inning. Maybe that's just the way the cookie crumbles. The offense will still be glad to see that the inning gets to continue once it's all straightened out.

I am becoming convinced that in the OP scenario we can call the runner safe, especially if we'd already loudly noted the OBS. That way, should a snowball fight ensue, the offense still has the ability to keep advancing. 

[jimurrayalterego]

10 hours ago, Velho said:

Doesn't FED explicitly not agree?

Section 2-22-1 When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated

OBR has the same wording. They add an interp for a protected runner being put out before his base

[Velho]

49 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

I am becoming convinced that in the OP scenario we can call the runner safe, especially if we'd already loudly noted the OBS. That way, should a snowball fight ensue, the offense still has the ability to keep advancing. 

I agree. It's gotta be a safe sign and a concise verbal along the lines of Maven's "Safe on the obstruction".

And if the defense wants to whine and complain during live action, and allow runners to advance, that's on them.

[Tog Gee]

And it's tough because sometimes applying base awards after OBS sometimes requires just a bit of reflection/consideration? 

Umpire must err on the side of the offense methinks. 

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

I agree. It's gotta be a safe sign and a concise verbal along the lines of Maven's "Safe on the obstruction".

And if the defense wants to whine and complain during live action, and allow runners to advance, that's on them.

I'm going to do what OBR and NCAA do. They both have the FED "until completion" phrase but add an exception.

"Note: If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play shall continue until its completion, even if it results in a play being made on the previously obstructed runner. If the play results in that runner being tagged out before they reach the base they would have been awarded, the umpire shall call “Time” at the moment the runner is tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that would nullify the obstruction."

[Velho]

38 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I'm going to do what OBR and NCAA do. They both have the FED "until completion" phrase but add an exception.

"Note: If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play shall continue until its completion, even if it results in a play being made on the previously obstructed runner. If the play results in that runner being tagged out before they reach the base they would have been awarded, the umpire shall call “Time” at the moment the runner is tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that would nullify the obstruction."

With you on OBR as MiLB and MLBU manuals are clear to call "Time" if the OBSed runner is tagged out. And I see how the languages are very similar.

In absence on NFHS giving direction, that application makes sense - though it doesn't seem to be the norm. Which begs the question (though existence of this post answers it): Has NFHS given any direction?

[RBIbaseball]

Holy cow

 

Seems as though my confusion on how to handle this was warranted.

 

My instinct leaned toward an immediate and emphatic "safe on obstruction" verbal. Pointing at the runner than at 3rd could be a good combination... and let play continue

 

However , it would probably avoid a lot of headache to handle it like MLB/NCAA suggests and immediately kill it, award 3B, then award B/R either 1B or 2B depending on judgement. (I can't tell whether you smart folks came to a consensus on whether this is explicitly not correct in NFHS)

 

But if I did do that, I'd lean toward awarding 1B, because if the obstruction hadn't occured, most likely that throw gets cut off, or F5 ignores the tag and fires back to 2B if necessary 

 

Also, offense is happy they get 3B, and you throw defense a bone holding B/R at 1B, lol

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

With you on OBR as MiLB and MLBU manuals are clear to call "Time" if the OBSed runner is tagged out. And I see how the languages are very similar.

In absence on NFHS giving direction, that application makes sense - though it doesn't seem to be the norm. Which begs the question (though existence of this post answers it): Has NFHS given any direction?

Just to be clear . If it's a bang bang play and you have them safe regardless, then you just call safe and let it ride 

 

If it's bang bang but you have an out, then you SHOULD kill it, then place B/R 

 

Edit: which got me thinking, at levels with replay you could really screw yourself by calling safe on a bang/bang without killing it to award on obstruction. If it was to be overturned, you now how to retroactively try to say he gets it anyway on obstruction... Which I think is a no-no 

 

Edit: or the ULTIMATE SH*# show ... You call safe on a bang bang, then F5 throws back to 2B and they tag B/R out. On replay they call R1 out ... Then you retroactively safe he was protected, and therefore you also try to place B/R back at 1B, negating 2 outs ROFL 

 

Note to self. If it's close, kill it, and award.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

Edit: which got me thinking, at levels with replay you could really screw yourself by calling safe on a bang/bang without killing it to award on obstruction. If it was to be overturned, you now how to retroactively try to say he gets it anyway on obstruction... Which I think is a no-no 

That's perfectly okay. It should never get to that point because when the replay request is made, HC should be told that there was obstruction with the runner protected to 3B irrespective of any play there.

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

Edit: or the ULTIMATE SH*# show ... You call safe on a bang bang, then F5 throws back to 2B and they tag B/R out. On replay they call R1 out ... Then you retroactively safe he was protected, and therefore you also try to place B/R back at 1B, negating 2 outs ROFL 

...which won't happen because of what I said above. 

[Velho]

22 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

2 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

Edit: which got me thinking, at levels with replay you could really screw yourself by calling safe on a bang/bang without killing it to award on obstruction. If it was to be overturned, you now how to retroactively try to say he gets it anyway on obstruction... Which I think is a no-no 

That's perfectly okay. It should never get to that point because when the replay request is made, HC should be told that there was obstruction with the runner protected to 3B irrespective of any play there.

Hopefully. Based on how some replay's have gone (I have one specific MLB play in mind) if you don't declare OBS was involved when calling the first SAFE (even though it wasn't WHY they were safe), and reply shows the tag was in fact in time, they may ignore the OBS and rule the runner out.

Cure is to rule the runner Doubly SAFE I guess? LOL 

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Hopefully. Based on how some replay's have gone (I have one specific MLB play in mind) if you don't declare OBS was involved when calling the first SAFE (even though it wasn't WHY they were safe), and reply shows the tag was in fact in time, they may ignore the OBS and rule the runner out.

Cure is to rule the runner Doubly SAFE I guess? LOL 

Ya I remember seeing something similar last year in MLB, and the BU wasn't allowed to retroactively get it.  It's what made me think of it.

 

Could be conflating two things tho, I don't remember for sure. Either way it's a funny thought.

[RBIbaseball]

To anyone following the discussion, I asked a friend of mine who does both NFHS and recently started doing some D1 level.

Anyways, he didn't seem to think that it's anything but an immediate dead ball upon tag of R1 coming into 3B.

 

When I continued to argue, he used rule 6-1-3 to justify calling time. Essentially, his point being when he is tagged you are making an award, therefore must call time.

 

I pointed out it says "when time is taken" and illudes to the time "when obstruction occurs", not later on during continuation of play. Seems kind of like a chicken or the egg type of thing.

 

However, it's something. And after all the discussion, I'm leaning toward killing it, even at NFHS level where I ump... Would y'all say I'm outright wrong if I did? It seems like a lot less chance of a big kerfuffle by killing it.

 

 

[Velho]

42 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Ya I remember seeing something similar last year in MLB, and the BU wasn't allowed to retroactively get it.  It's what made me think of it.

Happened to Malachi Moore as U2 when Tim Anderson knocked runners hand off the base with ball in glove. He called Safe but didn't get pushed off signal. Reply made it an out. Silly, but it happened.

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Anyways, he didn't seem to entertain that it's anything but an immediate dead ball upon tag of R1 coming into 3B.

So how does he see NFHS OBS as different than OBR of NCAA, i.e. does he kill it on OBR Type 1 OBS?

[RBIbaseball]

56 minutes ago, Velho said:

Happened to Malachi Moore as U2 when Tim Anderson knocked runners hand off the base with ball in glove. He called Safe but didn't get pushed off signal. Reply made it an out. Silly, but it happened.

Yep that's the exact play I'm thinking of. Thanks for the reminder.

 

55 minutes ago, Velho said:

So how does he see NFHS OBS as different than OBR of NCAA, i.e. does he kill it on OBR Type 1 OBS?

He kills it on type 1, as prescribed by rule. He treats type 2 the same as NFHS, meaning delayed dead ball BUT he kills it at any point a play is made on the previously obstructed runner (if he's still protected to next base)

 

Hopefully I said that right 

[The Man in Blue]

NFHS has weighed in on this . . . but on the softball side.  🤷‍♂️

 

Logic here, guys.  Don't create more headaches.  The rules are there to support it, even if they are poorly written.

You kill it at at the tag of the runner.  The play is over.  The rule doesn't say they get another play.  That play is over.  They don't get a chance to play on the trailing runner; you place him according to where you believe he would have been.  If you think they had him dead to rights, you put him back where he was last safe.  If you think he would have been there, award him that base.

"But what if they throw the ball away?"  This is precisely what you don't want to allow to happen.  You have a runner who was protected to third base and "put out" at third base.  Creating an opportunity for him to continue to advance beyond your award is opening a can of worms.  (Yes, if there was no play, he could run past the protection, but there was a play, so just don't do it.)

As for the proper mechanic, the school of thought has waffled on this.  

Personally, I believe in calling the runner out to show that you are seeing what is happening.  (OBR replay being a whole other insane beast.)  Immediately call time.  Then make awards.  Hammer.  Hands up.  Point to the bag.  If you don't want to call the out, just go time and award (hands up, point to the bag).  

I don't like any safe signal at any point on this.  Calling the runner safe is messy (and can undermine your credibility) when everybody in the park just saw him get tagged out.  He is not "safe on the obstruction" (nails on a chalkboard there).  He was tagged out.  He is awarded third base. 

Trying to deliver a monologue during a play is just a bad idea.    

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

You kill it at at the tag of the runner. 

So then how is NFHS any different than OBR in OBS mechanics? Only into the corner case of an OBR Type 1 that didn't involve the runner getting "out"?

[maven]

22 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

Umpire must err on the side of the offense methinks. 

As a general principle, this is incorrect. Baseball is a game of defense, and in general we should respect that.

But I'm sure you meant this in the context of OBS, in which case, I agree.

A better general formulation for your consideration: "the umpire should err on the side of the offended team." This will apply to OBS, INT, MC, and other infractions.

Though old schoolers will insist that we be perfect, and not err at all, ever.  

[Tog Gee]

1 hour ago, maven said:

But I'm sure you meant this in the context of OBS, in which case, I agree.

Bingo.