Illegal slide on force play

[humanbackstop19]

A group I've been working with has been in debate over the legality of slides, particularly on enforcing FPSR.  The debate circles around the definition of an illegal slide:

Rule 2-32 Art. 2:  A slide is illegal if: (c) except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

The "and then" has drawn a huge split.  Typically, we have been trained in our state that if a runner slides through a base (except home plate), even in a direct line between the bases, the runner was in violation of FPSR INT.  

So, 2 questions?  

1) If contact occurs legally between bases with a legal slide, is the runner guilty of FPSR if the slide still carries him through the base?  

2) Is there anything in the rules book or case books about contact that occurs with a fielder before the runner has a buttock and leg on the ground while sliding directly between the bases?  Can the slide become legal with the leg and butt hitting the ground after contact?    Example - SS makes double play turn and is in direct line between bases, takes 2 steps towards runner, gets taken out by approaching R1.  (So SS is gaining ground into R1 as much as R1 is coming into SS).

There is a casebook play that references a legal late slide with contact between the bases not being a violation, but it does not state if the contact occurred before or after a leg and buttock was on the ground.  

 

 

 

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

) If contact occurs legally between bases with a legal slide, is the runner guilty of FPSR if the slide still carries him through the base?  

I read this as contact beyond the base. If the fielder is on top of the bag, and there's contact with a runner who is sliding legally, that's nothing...even if the slide continues through the bag....Nothing happened past the bag to warrant a FPSR call. 

 

2 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

There is a casebook play that references a legal late slide with contact between the bases not being a violation, but it does not state if the contact occurred before or after a leg and buttock was on the ground.  

I have to take a closer look at this caseplay. My gut tells me if the slide starts late, and there's contact in front of the bag before the runner has his but on the ground, It's a violation. 

[humanbackstop19]

36 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I read this as contact beyond the base. If the fielder is on top of the bag, and there's contact with a runner who is sliding legally, that's nothing...even if the slide continues through the bag....Nothing happened past the bag to warrant a FPSR call. 

 

I have to take a closer look at this caseplay. My gut tells me if the slide starts late, and there's contact in front of the bag before the runner has his but on the ground, It's a violation. 

Here's the exact wording of the case play in the 2023 book.  

Situation: With R1 at 1st base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering 2nd. R1 slides late at 2nd, stays in the baseline, but R1 makes contact with F4 who is front of the base, causing F4 to overthrow 1st base.

Ruling: Providing the slide is legal and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation.

 

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

A group I've been working with has been in debate over the legality of slides, particularly on enforcing FPSR.  The debate circles around the definition of an illegal slide:

Rule 2-32 Art. 2:  A slide is illegal if: (c) except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

The "and then" has drawn a huge split.  Typically, we have been trained in our state that if a runner slides through a base (except home plate), even in a direct line between the bases, the runner was in violation of FPSR INT.  

So, 2 questions?  

1) If contact occurs legally between bases with a legal slide, is the runner guilty of FPSR if the slide still carries him through the base?  

2) Is there anything in the rules book or case books about contact that occurs with a fielder before the runner has a buttock and leg on the ground while sliding directly between the bases?  Can the slide become legal with the leg and butt hitting the ground after contact?    Example - SS makes double play turn and is in direct line between bases, takes 2 steps towards runner, gets taken out by approaching R1.  (So SS is gaining ground into R1 as much as R1 is coming into SS).

There is a casebook play that references a legal late slide with contact between the bases not being a violation, but it does not state if the contact occurred before or after a leg and buttock was on the ground.  

 

 

 

1. I've got nothing. Contact was before the base, so as I understand your question, 2-32-2(c) doesn't apply.
2. In your example, if the contact is made before the runner's slide is legal (i.e. before his leg and buttock are on the ground), the contact is illegal in my mind.

[834k3r]

1 minute ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Here's the exact wording of the case play in the 2023 book.  

Situation: With R1 at 1st base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering 2nd. R1 slides late at 2nd, stays in the baseline, but R1 makes contact with F4 who is front of the base, causing F4 to overthrow 1st base.

Ruling: Providing the slide is legal and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation.

 

That case play doesn't mention anything about the leg/buttock, so I would take that to mean it's a legal slide. In my mind that, in turn, means it's a different situation that your example in #2.

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

That case play doesn't mention anything about the leg/buttock, so I would take that to mean it's a legal slide. In my mind that, in turn, means it's a different situation that your example in #2.

The case play says "provided the slide is legal ...."  A slide without the leg / buttock on the ground is NOT legal.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Here's the exact wording of the case play in the 2023 book.  

Situation: With R1 at 1st base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering 2nd. R1 slides late at 2nd, stays in the baseline, but R1 makes contact with F4 who is front of the base, causing F4 to overthrow 1st base.

Ruling: Providing the slide is legal and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation.

 

I'll stick with my answer. If he hasn't gotten to the point where he's legally sliding and contact happens in front of the base, it's a violation

[maven]

5 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I'll stick with my answer. If he hasn't gotten to the point where he's legally sliding and contact happens in front of the base, it's a violation

I agree. The rule aims to protect middle infielders from runners, but not from themselves. If they position themselves in front of the base, they're in the flight path. A legal slide that contacts a fielder in front of the base is nothing.

The case play confuses its own point with "slides late." That might not be an illegal slide (conforms to that part of FPSR) but could yet be INT. I gather the point of the case is to illustrate a situation where contact by a sliding runner is NOT a FPSR violation—it might have been clearer to describe an ordinary legal slide that contacts F4 in front of the base, rather than something that might be (otherwise) illegal.

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

The case play says "provided the slide is legal ...."  A slide without the leg / buttock on the ground is NOT legal.

You're right--I didn't fully read the "ruling." The second half of your post is exactly my point.

[The Man in Blue]

Added aside: PU, get your butt out there and make sure you are helping your BU on watching this!  The BU has the turn, you have to stay with the slide until it is cleared.

[johnnyg08]

I like PU on the 1B side of the mound to get a good look at this. 

[jimurrayalterego]

17 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I like PU on the 1B side of the mound to get a good look at this. 

Texas TASO also like us on 1B side. Having done so and having BU obscure my view I still go to 3B side.

[johnnyg08]

11 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Texas TASO also like us on 1B side. Having done so and having BU obscure my view I still go to 3B side.

BU in the wrong spot! 

[Richvee]

13 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Texas TASO also like us on 1B side. Having done so and having BU obscure my view I still go to 3B side.

Ah yes!  If there was one two man mechanic I would love to see changed. R1 only, GB DP possibly. BU takes play at second and stays with it. PU has play at 1b. 

[834k3r]

11 hours ago, Richvee said:

Ah yes!  If there was one two man mechanic I would love to see changed. R1 only, GB DP possibly. BU takes play at second and stays with it. PU has play at 1b. 

[johnnyg08]

18 hours ago, Richvee said:

Ah yes!  If there was one two man mechanic I would love to see changed. R1 only, GB DP possibly. BU takes play at second and stays with it. PU has play at 1b. 

That would be another way to cover it. 

[The Man in Blue]

 

20 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Texas TASO also like us on 1B side. Having done so and having BU obscure my view I still go to 3B side.

Stay on 1B side so you still have an angle on a pulled foot.  Essentially, I start to trail the batter as you should with nobody on, but work out at an angle (and, of course, do not go as far as you normally would go). 

If BU is blocking you, one of you is not in the right place.

19 hours ago, Richvee said:

Ah yes!  If there was one two man mechanic I would love to see changed. R1 only, GB DP possibly. BU takes play at second and stays with it. PU has play at 1b. 

 

Stop making so much sense!  Not only is this logical, but, if there is an over throw at 1B, the next play is coming back at the BU.  Absolve the BU of that play at first base so that they can: 1.) give proper countenance to the play at 2B, and 2.) have adequate time to make the call at 2B, clear out anything that needs cleared (i.e., making sure the runner knows he is out), and 3.) prepare for another play.

[Thatsnotyou]

To build on this, another logical change would be with no one on, throw gets away, PU takes BR to 2nd. He’s already inside up the line and has an easy way to get an angle. The BU has to freeze, wait for BR to clear and then take off and end up far away with a bad angle with a throw coming from behind him. I’ve pregamed this and most times I’ll call off my BU as soon as the throw gets away. 

[JSam21]

42 minutes ago, Thatsnotyou said:

To build on this, another logical change would be with no one on, throw gets away, PU takes BR to 2nd. He’s already inside up the line and has an easy way to get an angle. The BU has to freeze, wait for BR to clear and then take off and end up far away with a bad angle with a throw coming from behind him. I’ve pregamed this and most times I’ll call off my BU as soon as the throw gets away. 

Why are you waiting for the BR to clear and then chasing? If you’re reading a bad throw, you should probably already be moving to get a better look at the play at first. 
 

So in your suggestion, you are going to have the plate umpire running 120’ and giving up the boundary responsibilities on the overthrow so the BU can just stand there? 
 

This is a solution looking for a problem.

[The Man in Blue]

Yeah, not a fan of that one.  That is a long way for your average PU to scoot.  More importantly though, BU would then have to cross for a play at third.

[jimurrayalterego]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Stay on 1B side so you still have an angle on a pulled foot.  

If BU is blocking you, one of you is not in the right place.

Evans had us on 3B side and if there was a safe at 2B drift to cover the pulled foot.

Evans had the BU drift to a better angle for 1B if he read a routine DP at 2B but stay closer if you read a trouble play at 2B. What is the right place for PU and BU? And what do you do if BU is not in the right place? I have called a few FPSR from the 3B side and don't think I missed any that I could have seen from the 1B side.

[Thatsnotyou]

4 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Why are you waiting for the BR to clear and then chasing? If you’re reading a bad throw, you should probably already be moving to get a better look at the play at first. 
 

So in your suggestion, you are going to have the plate umpire running 120’ and giving up the boundary responsibilities on the overthrow so the BU can just stand there? 
 

This is a solution looking for a problem.

It’s really not.
 

You pause so you don’t run into the BR when trying to get inside. By the time he runs through 1st, he’s somewhere in the vicinity. Let’s say it’s a low throw he may pick - you’re set. Then it bounces away. You’re not already moving. A lot of times you’ll have to cross the path the BR would have to get to 2nd. 
 

BU can watch the ball on the boundary.
 

Consider where you’ve seen BU make the call at 2B on a play after this. Unless they are really quick, they are looking up the a$$ of the play. It’s pretty brutal. The PU can always get a better look at this if he’s moved up the foul line as a starting point. 
 

If you think about where each umpire is when the ball *suddenly* gets away, it’s obvious which umpire will be able to get closer and more importantly, have a decent angle on the play.

 

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Yeah, not a fan of that one.  That is a long way for your average PU to scoot.  More importantly though, BU would then have to cross for a play at third.

Jog 45’ feet, then run inside with an angle and stop when necessary to make a call? Not much different if BU goes out on a trouble ball. 
 

Why would BU cross at this point? PU obviously would take him to 3rd. 

 

 

[JSam21]

11 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

It’s really not.
 

You pause so you don’t run into the BR when trying to get inside. By the time he runs through 1st, he’s somewhere in the vicinity. Let’s say it’s a low throw he may pick - you’re set. Then it bounces away. You’re not already moving. A lot of times you’ll have to cross the path the BR would have to get to 2nd. 
 

BU can watch the ball on the boundary.
 

Consider where you’ve seen BU make the call at 2B on a play after this. Unless they are really quick, they are looking up the a$$ of the play. It’s pretty brutal. The PU can always get a better look at this if he’s moved up the foul line as a starting point. 
 

If you think about where each umpire is when the ball *suddenly* gets away, it’s obvious which umpire will be able to get closer and more importantly, have a decent angle on the play.

 

Jog 45’ feet, then run inside with an angle and stop when necessary to make a call? Not much different if BU goes out on a trouble ball. 
 

Why would BU cross at this point? PU obviously would take him to 3rd. 

 

 

What are you looking at for plays at first base as the base umpire?

[The Man in Blue]

On 2/25/2025 at 10:32 PM, jimurrayalterego said:

Evans had us on 3B side and if there was a safe at 2B drift to cover the pulled foot.

Evans had the BU drift to a better angle for 1B if he read a routine DP at 2B but stay closer if you read a trouble play at 2B. What is the right place for PU and BU? And what do you do if BU is not in the right place? I have called a few FPSR from the 3B side and don't think I missed any that I could have seen from the 1B side.

 

 

I know Evans is far more experienced than I, and I do respect him.  I must be missing something though, because that just sounds dumb.  We know the most common "trouble spot" for a BU is the pulled foot from C, so why are we intentionally going to "C-minor" and routinely putting ourselves in a bad spot so as to avoid a freak occurrence of being blocked by a mis-positioned BU?  We are giving up BOTH distance AND angle.

[The Man in Blue]

On 2/26/2025 at 12:34 AM, Thatsnotyou said:

It’s really not.
 

You pause so you don’t run into the BR when trying to get inside. By the time he runs through 1st, he’s somewhere in the vicinity. Let’s say it’s a low throw he may pick - you’re set. Then it bounces away. You’re not already moving. A lot of times you’ll have to cross the path the BR would have to get to 2nd. 
 

BU can watch the ball on the boundary.
 

Consider where you’ve seen BU make the call at 2B on a play after this. Unless they are really quick, they are looking up the a$$ of the play. It’s pretty brutal. The PU can always get a better look at this if he’s moved up the foul line as a starting point. 
 

If you think about where each umpire is when the ball *suddenly* gets away, it’s obvious which umpire will be able to get closer and more importantly, have a decent angle on the play.

 

Jog 45’ feet, then run inside with an angle and stop when necessary to make a call? Not much different if BU goes out on a trouble ball. 
 

Why would BU cross at this point? PU obviously would take him to 3rd. 

 

 

 

I guess I should ask what level we are talking about here.  If pro, OK, I expect the umpires to be athletic and move.  Even at 2-umpire college level, I would say the number of PUs who can pull that off are fewer and fewer.  By the time you drop to HS, extremely slim.

So, I would say know your partner and know your level.  

BTW, you now have PU running to 3B in full gear after busting his ass to 2B . . . just to have the same problem you were trying to solve with BU looking up the ass-end of the play at 2B.